Re: Lilia

Your attitude towards the Giving Tree is great. It's also part of a very tiny minority. I've not yet talked to anyone who doesn't outright say "Giving Tree=free stuff". That is ALL that they care about. It was the same problem with curios. Ev tried to warn people about them (from his IC perspective, these were incredibly mysterious, sometimes chilling devices we knew nothing about), but the response was "OOC: The admin are giving them away, you can't tell us not to get them."

I would love to be able to approach a monthly promotion as part of Lusternia and act accordingly. But I can't. Because they are not, and people know that, and act accordingly in an OOC fashion. It is super, super, super frustrating.

There could have, potentially, been six separate events summoning something relevant quest item receptacle to each of the orgs. Each providing the same rewards but for their own reasons. It's still the same thing in the end, it's a monthly event and ooc'ly we can enjoy the free stuff from promotions but it reinforces rather than detracts from rp.

But I feel that even if something like this were done, there is a very high possibility that the giving tree would have still been brought in as the quest item receptacle for serenwilde and glomdoring, even if all the others got something unique.

Keep in mind these monthly promotions are something brought in from IRE and isn't something Estarra likely has a choice about. That in mind, complaining about the fact that the events are just trying to "hide" the ooc aspect of the promotional/getting free stuff is if anything only going to result in them being left blatantly ooc without any attempt to make them into an event, which is about the opposite of what you want I'm sure. I thought the miasma for instance was rather well done and that was "just a cover for a promotional".

If that made any sense. if you want to complain about promotional, don't aim at the messenger who's trying to make them IC.

Also we're going more and more off-topic. Back to the stuff about what you think ideally Serenwilde -should- be.

Actually, the topic was what things can be done to make an organisation more fun. :P

Everiine:

Your attitude towards the Giving Tree is great. It's also part of a very tiny minority.

Thinking of the Giving Tree as just a monthly promo is silly, since you get something everyday, and not just at the end of the 21 days.

I think the administration decided to do this instead of the solstice gnomes. While I love the gnomes, I will freely admit that it is purely for greedy reasons. Gnomes can give ridiculous payouts if you are lucky, but the payout is also very inequitable, and generally favours the seasoned gnome hunter. The Giving Tree cuts down the rewards, but also does a very good job of ensuring that everyone gets their daily shot at some potential shinies (500 darkmalt/mercury/greentea is nothing to scoff at necessarily).

I'm not sure if I'll be more happy or more annoyed if gnomes still show up close to Christmas. All I know is if they do, I'm certainly going to try to cash in.

Saran, I'm not entirely sure what your argument is anymore. Everything the outside perspective has so far suggested as something that may have worked for their respective organizations is being immediately shot down with an almost condescending disregard of the idea, and with another complaint about the "way things are."

The bottom line--and Glomdoring is a true testament to this ideal, whether you want to believe it was all Estarra's doing or not--is that the players need to initiate, and continue to promote, change. Saying the Giving Tree is just a promotional creation comes from the same essence of giving up that I'm referring to now, which Serenwilde, according to the content of this thread, cannot afford to do.

I also recognize that Saran is not the only Serenwilde voice and does not act as a spokesperson for the majority. I'm kind of curious to know if new players feel the same way or if it's a small minority of disgruntled "old timers," as Lilia put it, that are worried about the state of the organization. If that's the case, maybe the focus should return to creating more things/events/consistent ideals that the new players can play with and not some dramatic overhaul of the organization itself.

No, seriously-- if I tell the Shadowdancers that we're suddenly not a coven anymore and that instead, we're a black congregation of Night priests, I'm not really engineering this change to influence the beliefs of the older players because I know they'll freak out and tell me how terrible and tyrannical I am being by cavalierly destroying a two centuries-old tradition (miraculously, this has not been the case, and yes, this is something I've recently changed). I'm really overhauling the way the Shadowdancers function because in part, I was afraid that all the incentive to actually be a Shadowdancer (aside from our skills) had gone out of the guild, and it is a very real fact that our novice retention is down again. Something had to be done!

In the scheme of things (read: the overall culture and mythos of Glomdoring), this was a small change, but it has already helped keep people in the guild, new and old, focused on a project in which they can actually become organic leaders, seeing the fruits of their labors come to life. They're doing things.

While this may not solve any major Glomdoring issues at the onset, it will eventually influence people to look outward, away from the Shadowdancers, with a renewed sense of purpose. EVERYONE who has played Lusternia for as long as we have are hanging on the events the Administration creates because we've "done it all." I'm a demigod. I'm an avatar. I co-run an Order. I'm a Guild Administrator. I'm a minister. I founded a family. Blah blah blah. I could stop, give up, and demand more attention from Nocht because I'm bored, but instead, I use all the things I've accomplished to help other people make the game interesting with me instead of for me.

Changing guild structures may not be Serenwilde's "solution," but it's the same kind of tangible, hands-on change that I'm hoping will help the current situation, however terrible change may feel to the "old timers" at first. It will also probably require a strong voice and a courageous leader, who may eventually be overturned--but at least it will be something progressive.

Druken:

Saran, I'm not entirely sure what your argument is anymore. Everything the outside perspective has so far suggested as something that may have worked for their respective organizations is being immediately shot down with an almost condescending disregard of the idea, and with another complaint about the "way things are."

The bottom line--and Glomdoring is a true testament to this ideal, whether you want to believe it was all Estarra's doing or not--is that the players need to initiate, and continue to promote, change. Saying the Giving Tree is just a promotional creation comes from the same essence of giving up that I'm referring to now, which Serenwilde, according to the content of this thread, cannot afford to do.

The issue is that we need something new, but it needs to be presented as something old. Since launch Serenwilde has been about remaining as the last pure forest, if what is implemented is presented as a fundamental change to Serenwilde rather than it being presented as the org rediscovering something about itself that it did not know you are more likely to face resistance because you are more likely to get people saying it is being corrupted or not true to itself.

With the giving tree I was excited because something was happening with the natural world, there was an event which drew on the communes alone and this hasn't really happened in a while.

The other issue is that, had it been presented slightly differently. If Glomdoring hadn't been involved and Serenwilde had been able to grow the tree itself because the non-wyrd parts of the natural world needed it then various interpretations can be drawn about what that means. But with the tendency to put Glomdoring and Serenwilde together in events relating to the natural world, there have been a few times now from memory where Serenwilde is unable to protect itself or resolve an issue without relying on the wyrd. Because pretty everything that happens in the natural world involves the fae or the tree of trees and so involves both communes.

I also recognize that Saran is not the only Serenwilde voice and does not act as a spokesperson for the majority. I'm kind of curious to know if new players feel the same way or if it's a small minority of disgruntled "old timers," as Lilia put it, that are worried about the state of the organization. If that's the case, maybe the focus should return to creating more things/events/consistent ideals that the new players can play with and not some dramatic overhaul of the organization itself.

That might work, but does Serenwilde stand for? What do they have to draw on for strength when all their gods are silent? I got bored and wrote up something that, in effect, did one thing and one thing alone, it gave a name to Serenwildes beliefs that is not "the forest" or "nature". The change in the way you can talk about it is drastic, an explanation for why it was forgotten ended up being a reinforcement of old hatreds.

No, seriously-- if I tell the Shadowdancers that we're suddenly not a coven anymore and that instead, we're a black congregation of Night priests, I'm not really engineering this change to influence the beliefs of the older players because I know they'll freak out and tell me how terrible and tyrannical I am being by cavalierly destroying a two centuries-old tradition (miraculously, this has not been the case, and yes, this is something I've recently changed). I'm really overhauling the way the Shadowdancers function because in part, I was afraid that all the incentive to actually be a Shadowdancer (aside from our skills) had gone out of the guild, and it is a very real fact that our novice retention is down again. Something had to be done!

In the scheme of things (read: the overall culture and mythos of Glomdoring), this was a small change, but it has already helped keep people in the guild, new and old, focused on a project in which they can actually become organic leaders, seeing the fruits of their labors come to life. They're doing things.

While this may not solve any major Glomdoring issues at the onset, it will eventually influence people to look outward, away from the Shadowdancers, with a renewed sense of purpose. EVERYONE who has played Lusternia for as long as we have are hanging on the events the Administration creates because we've "done it all." I'm a demigod. I'm an avatar. I co-run an Order. I'm a Guild Administrator. I'm a minister. I founded a family. Blah blah blah. I could stop, give up, and demand more attention from Nocht because I'm bored, but instead, I use all the things I've accomplished to help other people make the game interesting with me instead of for me.

My main reason for wanting some form of admin involvement is primarily so that if we go ahead with something, we don't get something two months down the track say "No, you are all wrong" (See: Nekotai and their relationship with Scorpion).

Having the admin actually give a nod, even if we do all the work ourselves with just a few nudges from the admin to show their approval would give some level of comfort as we would know that all this work is not for nothing.

Changing guild structures may not be Serenwilde's "solution," but it's the same kind of tangible, hands-on change that I'm hoping will help the current situation, however terrible change may feel to the "old timers" at first. It will also probably require a strong voice and a courageous leader, who may eventually be overturned--but at least it will be something progressive.

I do not think any of the old timers are saying there does not need to be a change, and this paragraph makes little sense with previous ones in your post. We want change that meshes with Serenwildes beliefs, rather than simply replacing them with something new.

I suppose, in response, I'll suggest that the current (and old) traditions are not working, as you've described repeatedly.

...your only other option is to change them, and by golly, that can very well start with individual guilds or small factions of strong-minded and strong-willed (and thick-skinned), proactive people. You may also want to avoid reverting to the idea that Glomdoring as an agent of nature is one of the Serenwilde's major issues because that's not really changeable without drastic administrative involvement.

I sense a vicious cycle in your argument, which I pointed out before. I still think the thing that's missing from your analysis of the situation is a strong desire to move forward in small, short-and-victorious ways, without divine involvement, and if that's the case, this thread can probably close now because none of us can instigate that sort of thing!

Small victories, after all, are what made the Glomdoring want to keep moving forward. I think Lilia said the same thing, too, for Hallifax.

(also, helloooo. you don't actually have to believe Glomdoring's natural, and if that's the thing y'all want to cling to, go ahead--the wyrd is purple goo that only recently exists, so why not create propaganda about the wyrd being some kind of spontaneous infection? a rash on the Basin? a false reality that is only perpetuated by the willful belief of the Glomdoring members that create it, summoned from some stash of Virasune essence that has yet to be revealed (think weapons of mass destruction!)? you have plenty of ammo and a lot of potential, so go forth, ye tree hugger, and make moves!)

edit: I also want to add that because Lusternia is so dynamic in that the mythos changes regularly to include some sort of new x factor every now and then, i.e. the addition of the wyrd or the release of the new cities, the organizations should change, too, to reflect how they're going to work with the new stuff. This can be as simple as changing the laws to say that Gaudiguch is full of halfwit party-goers, and therefore, we do not want them stinking up our communes with their salacious and indecent ideals. It can be as drastic, too, as getting together with the Moonhart Council and suggesting a new mission for the Serenwilde to compensate for x. The Wyrd exists now, and it's probably not going away anytime soon, so what if the Moonhart Council comes together and says "hey, guys--looks like nature's gone whacky. We should maybe get a little crazy and blame x for this abomination and withdraw support from x to demonstrate how much we hate x. We might also wanna get in on the ground floor of this new idea/belief/rationale called x, which will forever change the way we look at the Wyrd for the better/worse." No Gods necessary, and if They truly dislike what you come up with, Theyll say so somehow and give you more guidance for the future. That's what happened with the Nekotai, after all, and now look at how totally cool they are!

If the Wyrd's purple goo, then I'm the purple omni-wrinkled wyrden potato.

Druken:

I suppose, in response, I'll suggest that the current (and old) traditions are not working, as you've described repeatedly.

I'm not sure you are comprehending what I am asking for.

...your only other option is to change them, and by golly, that can very well start with individual guilds or small factions of strong-minded and strong-willed (and thick-skinned), proactive people. You may also want to avoid reverting to the idea that Glomdoring as an agent of nature is one of the Serenwilde's major issues because that's not really changeable without drastic administrative involvement.

The issue is more that it becomes harder to argue against the more we are forced to co-operate. Just try to imagine what it would be like if Celest and Magnagora were continually forced to work together. (not in the, ooh world event everyone try to get in the event post)

I sense a vicious cycle in your argument, which I pointed out before. I still think the thing that's missing from your analysis of the situation is a strong desire to move forward in small, short-and-victorious ways, without divine involvement, and if that's the case, this thread can probably close now because none of us can instigate that sort of thing!

Small victories, after all, are what made the Glomdoring want to keep moving forward. I think Lilia said the same thing, too, for Hallifax.

I will assume this is so, because from an outside Glomdoring was completely derp until the admin stepped in and the wyrd was created. Saran is still slightly disturbed by that visit from Viravain

(also, helloooo. you don't actually have to believe Glomdoring's natural, and if that's the thing y'all want to cling to, go ahead--the wyrd is purple goo that only recently exists, so why not create propaganda about the wyrd being some kind of spontaneous infection? a rash on the Basin? a false reality that is only perpetuated by the willful belief of the Glomdoring members that create it, summoned from some stash of Virasune essence that has yet to be revealed (think weapons of mass destruction!)? you have plenty of ammo and a lot of potential, so go forth, ye tree hugger, and make moves!)

This argument falls apart when we cannot protect our forest without needing the wyrd. There has simply been no reinforcement of the idea that Serenwilde has some different connection to nature outside its own forest in comparison to Glomdoring. Events like the Dandelion one help to reinforce this, by pitting the forests against each other, events like the giving tree should be treated like asking Celest and Mag or Hallifax and Gaudiguch to work together.

edit: I also want to add that because Lusternia is so dynamic in that the mythos changes regularly to include some sort of new x factor every now and then, i.e. the addition of the wyrd or the release of the new cities, the organizations should change, too, to reflect how they're going to work with the new stuff. This can be as simple as changing the laws to say that Gaudiguch is full of halfwit party-goers, and therefore, we do not want them stinking up our communes with their salacious and indecent ideals. It can be as drastic, too, as getting together with the Moonhart Council and suggesting a new mission for the Serenwilde to compensate for x. The Wyrd exists now, and it's probably not going away anytime soon, so what if the Moonhart Council comes together and says "hey, guys--looks like nature's gone whacky. We should maybe get a little crazy and blame x for this abomination and withdraw support from x to demonstrate how much we hate x. We might also wanna get in on the ground floor of this new idea/belief/rationale called x, which will forever change the way we look at the Wyrd for the better/worse." No Gods necessary, and if They truly dislike what you come up with, Theyll say so somehow and give you more guidance for the future. That's what happened with the Nekotai, after all, and now look at how totally cool they are!

This is the exact "solution" that would receive the most resistance. Serenwilde is defined by staying true to its past and remaining pure, solutions are more often than not found by consulting spirits and looking into history. An ancient ritual is uncovered, sealed memories are revealed, cairns to notable ancestors are raised, even when the eye of dynara united the two forests I think it was presented more as reuniting what was divided and not changing the forest to suit us.

This is what Serenwilde does, this isn't the issue. The prevailing issue is, Why?

The very simple fact is that anything that we do will be discussed amongst the players that are going to push for change, as it is slowly being so. These forums raise the visibility of those who want to be involved, and this means that, as has happened, private messages start to be circulated. People can start to work together and develop a cohesive concept. It is a rather simple process

Saran:

The issue is more that it becomes harder to argue against the more we are forced to co-operate. Just try to imagine what it would be like if Celest and Magnagora were continually forced to work together. (not in the, ooh world event everyone try to get in the event post)

A lot of people were actually around when Celest and Magnagora were forced to work together for a prolonged period of time... they sucked it up, found common ground in their shared hatred of all commune barbarians, and their respective civilizations. It was not a happy marriage, but it lasted a fair while, and was mutually beneficial in the end.

Glomdoring and Serenwilde are nothing alike. It is absolutely true that compared to everyone else, Glom and Seren are the nearest allies when it comes to all things nature or fae related. We are sitting on opposite sides of a circle whereas the other four orgs are on separate corners of a square, but there's a reason why none of our grudging alliances have ever lasted longer than the events. The Wyrd is a blight, our spirits are tainted, our morals are non-existent on a variety of issues, our general mindset is completely delusional, our version of natural beauty rank and befouled, and so on to infinity. Yes, we are both communes, but we are so diametrically opposed where it comes to culture and conditioning that there is ample room for two orgs in the sphere. There is certainly overlap, but there is plenty that is mutually exclusive. The comparison I've used before is that Glomdoring and Serenwilde are engaged in a perpetual sibling rivalry. They will squabble constantly, but when there is an external threat, their familial loyalty shows.

I do not think that Serenwilde actually needs a lot of extra stuff to help define itself. I think it just needs more people to step up and embrace what you have currently. I know that's not always easy, and I can understand that you'd like more opportunities to do this, apart from Glom's influence... and that's where the admin support would come in - however it really does need to start with players. I mean, role-play doesn't only turn on when the mobs are talking, you know? Serenwilde could really benefit from a few outspoken fanatics, all on the same page, mind, to help carry everyone by setting the tone. In reality I know that some of your oldbies are real jerkfaces about this behavior, and would prefer to languish in misery and snarky animus, but you just need to tune those people out until they orghop, srs.

thisismydisplayname:

If the Wyrd's purple goo, then I'm the purple omni-wrinkled wyrden potato.

Don't let Rancoura see you wearing that title. :D

The biggest problem moving forward for Seren (not for the game, not trying to say that at all) is still that the Wyrd has been written in to the lore as essential to nature, when big events come along.

Thus, Seren can't be about any inherent rejection of the wyrd in terms of nature itself, without ultimately being completely hypocritical, even moronic about their own devotion to nature.

Since Glomdoring's narrative allows it to be every bit pro nature-as-a-whole as Serenwilde, Seren needs something else to "be about". At the moment, they are at best, the commune that Glomdoring isn't. Existing in the negative doesn't seem like a great deal of fun.

Seren needs to develop its own wyrd/light/taint/freedom/collective. While it does have a collection of elements that may be seeds of something to work with, it is the Seinfield of orgs right now, and that's what really needs to change. Whether it comes entirely from the players, or it comes from admin nudging (and some admin involvement is probably essential), it could use some coherence on the scale the other orgs have.

But Seren's theme is a foggier target, due to its nature (pun not intended) and the way the lore of the game has developed. Having "morality" doesn't really work in a game so full of grey areas, that actively rewards NOT being the moral side. Celest handles this pretty well, preaching the virtues of the Light in one hand, and waging insane, zeal-fueled capaigns of genocide driving back the forces of darkness by what means are necessary, even if they are unfortunate ones.

But, Celest also has the advantage of not having events that constantly reinforce the taint as essential to something they stand for.

From an outside perspective, I'd like to see Serenwilde be about something coherent and tangible that runs somewhat parallel to the theme of "we like nature". The way Glomdoring has the Wyrd/Glomdoring itself to be "for" at the end of the day. "Pure" nature doesn't really work for this, because it is such a moving target.

We've got a few ideas for a Seren-force, I think. I know that we've got at least one person who is trying to work on that part, and we've got a (if I do say so myself) damn good and mostly player driven way to unveil whatever the heck it is we end up doing.

I do agree with you for the most part, Talan. A bunch of new stuff isn't what Serenwilde needs. What would help immensely would be to have one thing or one core concept to rally around that isn't at odds with the reality of the game too much. It's nice to say that our core thing that we should rally around is being pure to ourselves, final bastion of Nature and all that, but playing this game without alliances just doesn't work.

When the Tree of Trees calls out for help, does it call out to just us, who are the supposed last remaining enclave of true Nature. Us, the main entity that defends Nature against the "malign influence of Glomdoring Forest"? Nope, he calls out to us (the pro-Nature guys) and to Glom (yah, not so much, you've got your own version of nature you want). The quote from the last event is:

Hart moon talon black brother sisters brethren listen come to me.

So, either Moondancers, Shadowdancers, Hartstone and Blacktalon should all be chummy with each other or, more troublingly, we are all brothers of the ToT itself, which is a direct and hard affront to us. I'm not sure what the BT and SD lore is exactly, I've played in Glom but neither of those guilds but the general feeling I got from the teachings of Crow and Night as put forward to the commune is that Serenwilde is just foolish. We just don't see the stronger and better way. It's not that we are wrong in the entire Nature thing, but that we are constrained unnecessarily by it. Not so on our end. If we rally around 'purity of Nature', you are badbadevilevil. It's worse then the cities, who represent excess and blindness. You looked at nature, were a part of it, and decided to trash it specifically. It's not a case of being blind, it's a case of intentionally throwing Nature under the bus for something you believe is better but as druids should know better! The cities are bad news, but they aren't Druids and Wiccans who share the Nature skill! Why the Nil should we be brothers to you? Why the Nil should you be brothers to the ToT? On the other hand why would ToT be wrong? And look, your aid did provide an unequivocally good result, one that we could not have accomplished on our own. RP that involves some infighting due to identity crisis is not a bad thing, but when there isn't really any recourse, it tends to get old fast.

So, I disagree on that point. Serenwilde currently has the focus, "Nature, as defined by not being a city and not being Glomdoring". There are a lot of really good tribal/shamanistic hooks lying around, but without a central motivating force, they get going and kind of die out. As I said in my earlier post, the best course of action that I see working from this point out goes like this:

-Figure out, mostly OOC, a basic framework for a Seren force or Seren highconcept that isn't subtractive. Not much of a change is really needed, honestly. Still should be Nature. I do not think this should be an entity, it should be a force.

-Either figure out a player driven event and see if some NPCs can be animated for the purpose, or have an admin event. One big caveat to the latter: It has to be open ended. In the end, we have to make a decision to do something about whatever happens. At this point, we're going to want to have at least talked with admins/patron about what it is we want the force to be. The choice shouldn't necessarily be between multiple Forces, but between how we want to handle it, including rejection. We've got to have some IC spark, some reason to change our ways.

-Follow through. Perhaps a few lines on important NPCs as time goes on to support the thing. Puzzle out what exactly it means to each guild. Use it to promote guild cohesion. Use it to stand on even footing against the Cities, as we no longer are just against whatever they are, we have our own competing thing. We don't have to disprove their concept (Light/Taint/Wyrd/Order/Chaos), we can prove that our thing is better, that it's the right way. We'd be able to define it as something separate from Nature (which everyone is sort of inescapably a part of anyways, excepting the undead, though they will eventually fall back into it), but supportive of it.

After the way she's been treated by Glomdoring, Qistrel has turned into a bit of a zealot. She'll argue that Tree (and probably anyone else who regards the Glomdoring as essential part of nature) is wrong - and that Tree has probably been affected by the wyrd in the trees of Glomdoring, and isn't quite in His right mind.

I wonder if she can use her GA position to indoctrinate this into young druids.

Yes, you could.

Actually, come to think if it, White Hart is definitely keen on the killing of Crow stuff. Surely the Serenwilde should be putting more stock in him than in Tree?

Talan:

Don't let Rancoura see you wearing that title. :D

...if she does, then my waterfall-teardrops shall pool oceans. :(

I could totally get behind a self-destructive "screw Maeve/ToT/everything, Glomdoring and the Wyrd is evil and must be destroyed, and if all of Nature goes with it, oh well" mentality. IC, of course, you just turn a blind eye toward everything telling you that last bit. Next time we have a giant event that requires we work with Glomdoring? Don't. Ignore it completely in favor of a holy war against the Wyrd.

To do that, of course, you'd have to ignore or purposely try to pervert world events that attempt to force the communes together and give the finger to anything the admin try to do toward that end, and I can't see that working, if for no other reason than people like to participate in events.

Or Bad Things can happen, like Cthoglogg sending in an illithoid army to burn Hart and his grove just so you'd participate in the proper side of the event.

Hello, Xenthos.

Sylphas:

I could totally get behind a self-destructive "screw Maeve/ToT/everything, Glomdoring and the Wyrd is evil and must be destroyed, and if all of Nature goes with it, oh well" mentality. IC, of course, you just turn a blind eye toward everything telling you that last bit. Next time we have a giant event that requires we work with Glomdoring? Don't. Ignore it completely in favor of a holy war against the Wyrd.

To do that, of course, you'd have to ignore or purposely try to pervert world events that attempt to force the communes together and give the finger to anything the admin try to do toward that end, and I can't see that working, if for no other reason than people like to participate in events.

Less screw nature, more... Maeve has been corrupted by the influence of the taint so she no longer speaks for nature... if she ever did (ohai sun). I am more thinking about a collective type entity/force that is beyond the influence of the gods. She is a construct that was created to protect the forests. If you wanted to see a true manifestation of nature you should seek out x in serenwilde.