You'd have to keep in mind that Maeve is the collective spirit of the fae. She rules them; they are her, she is they. If you go down the 'shun Maeve' path, you are going against the will of the Queen. That would essentially make Serenwilde the 'rebel' forest, which is actually not bad - it's like injecting a certain amount of 'badness' into Serenwilde's 'good' image.

You'd have to keep in mind that Maeve is the collective spirit of the fae. She rules them; they are her, she is they. If you go down the 'shun Maeve' path, you are going against the will of the Queen. That would essentially make Serenwilde the 'rebel' forest, which is actually not bad - it's like injecting a certain amount of 'badness' into Serenwilde's 'good' image.


Right now I am thinking of Maeve as more of a computer system, she has an intended function that she attempts to fulfil however major sections of the code are corrupted and as such producing erroneous results.

The forest fae are forcibly part of Maeve, the elder wars books specify that it is only forest fae that are connected to her and her connection to the tainted spirits is potentially dangerous to Serenwilde. She is a shield that is weakened and no longer as effective as needed.

I would rather see a naturally evolving entity that represents pure nature, something with conciousness but not in a way that we could comprehend. Something that fights in its mysterious ways against anything that would harm it, including Maeve unless she is being a useful implement and helping its interests.

That's possible, and something Serenwilde can definitely rally behind. I look forward to portraying you as fae rebels in game, though! It's been some time since there has been any meaningful interaction between the communes.

Saran:

I would rather see a naturally evolving entity that represents pure nature, something with conciousness but not in a way that we could comprehend. Something that fights in its mysterious ways against anything that would harm it, including Maeve unless she is being a useful implement and helping its interests.

Going to try and keep Xiran's perspective turned off here.

Rather than introducing a new entity, couldn't these pure entities be Hart, Moon, and Bull? Hart and Moon do ask for their aspects of corrupt counterparts (e.g., Daughters of Night) to be slain, or object to their views (Nejii's play comparing Bull/Scorpion).

Kailak, the phase of the New Moon on Mother Moon's aetherbubble, does show the influence of Night, but she's also been isolated rather than accepted by the rest of the phases. It could be argued that they're trying to contain the spread of the Wyrd and weaken Kailak in calling for the ritual in praise of Moon as often as they can.

Serenwilde can define themselves alone as a defender of Nature, view the Glomdoring as having other interests at heart (since "Nothing matters but Glomdoring"). Corrupt elements of what was once Nature can either eat moonfire (in battle/enter the pentacle and be converted), be isolated and starved for power and resources (Kailak), or shunned (Queen Maeve in neutrality and on the New Moon).

Not trying to say we should aim for ceaseless raiding. OOCly, we know denizens revive and Glomdoring// is here to stay. We can aim for isolating/weakening the corrupters of Nature: swaying villages to support Nature and the Wilde; claiming nodes, aetherbubbles, domoths; herding bards and scholars; increasing comm production; etc.

Okay, we might ally temporarily when some event says, "Protect the Fae/trees/Basin!" but we know Glomdoring just cares about self-preservation. They don't care if the rest of the Basin burns--they'll heal it just enough to give them new ground they can till the Wyrd into.

I know that the main reason I created a character in Serenwilde, is because I saw it as a good, happy, loving place, where that love was openly shown, as opposed to Glomdoring where, behind closed doors, people can be nice and loving, but out in the open it is not encouraged. People like Lunalo completely embodied what I expected Serenwilde to be like, which is what I was looking for. However, I don't think that's how the older residents of Seren see themselves, at least not anymore. Lunalo actually went rogue so that she could be her happy, bubbly, loving self, without feeling restricted. I know that she took it to the extreme, but that is still the general feeling that I was expecting Serenwilde to be like. Maybe I just didn't know, because I had never lived in Seren prior to this, but that was the image being projected out there. I honestly don't think it is a bad way to go.

As to the original question of how we can make Serenwilde more fun, I think the number one thing is just interaction. Some of the best times I've had in game are when we are just randomly RPing about things at the Mother, or in Moondance Tower. Events and games and contests, etc, are great, and I think they add to Serenwilde, but if people just stand around and don't ever interact with others, it's all useless. I go out of my way to help young ones and talk/smile/interact with everyone I come into contact with. I know that it takes some effort to come up with your style of RP, how you are going to portray your character, but I think the effort is worth it and will create a better experience for everyone. Obviously, we can't force people to do this, but if you don't want to RP, then what the point of playing Lusternia? You can quest and hunt in any number of video games, but I think the ability to openly RP is what sets us apart.

Take what you will from this. These are my own personal feelings, as a newer person of the commune.

Arsalil:

I know that the main reason I created a character in Serenwilde, is because I saw it as a good, happy, loving place, where that love was openly shown, as opposed to Glomdoring where, behind closed doors, people can be nice and loving, but out in the open it is not encouraged. People like Lunalo completely embodied what I expected Serenwilde to be like, which is what I was looking for. However, I don't think that's how the older residents of Seren see themselves, at least not anymore. Lunalo actually went rogue so that she could be her happy, bubbly, loving self, without feeling restricted. I know that she took it to the extreme, but that is still the general feeling that I was expecting Serenwilde to be like. Maybe I just didn't know, because I had never lived in Seren prior to this, but that was the image being projected out there. I honestly don't think it is a bad way to go.

I do... I bubbly forest turns off so many people and is widely accepted as one of the reasons that Serenwilde gets so many non-comms. And not the sort that are great RP-ers and craftsmen, the sort that don't know up from down and spend their time utterly lost (defying our best attempts to help them) and shouting random things. It's like Gaudi and their 'freedom'. Because they are supposed to be 'free' and 'insane' they accidentally attracted all sorts of OOC insanity and just plain stupidity when they opened. I think it's probably safe to say that some of that was just people rolling silly characters to troll Gaudi, but it can't have all been!
,
That said: A big part of Seren is already about personal freedoms. In general, the government is loath to step into personal lives, and if you aren't somehow stepping on someone else's freedoms, we'll just tell you to keep quiet if you are particularly annoying (and tell you not to hug people who have told you to not touch them). This can be good and bad. For instance, IC someone came to me (When I was CL) saying that their sister was being victimized by domestic violence. I couldn't really do anything, both literally and IC as CL, especially because the victim wasn't willing to do anything about it. I wasn't asked to join in their private life, and as much as I may have wanted to IC, I didn't want to set a dangerous precedent of stepping in on random single claims. (Especially since I've been accused of starting conspiracies and hiring assassins before, and they were totally full of it.)

I don't foresee Serenwilde ever going totally cuddly, partially because there wouldn't be any way to 'enforce' that, and it would make it totally non-viable as a nation. Nature and life aren't nice and cuddly, and the traditionalist Serenwilder (I think) would suppose that pretending that the world is just a-ok is as bad or worse then the enforced blindness of a city.


@Xikue I agree with not introducing a new person/spirit, but I think Saran isn't talking about a literally being when he says 'entity' anyways.

Enyalida:


I do... I bubbly forest turns off so many people and is widely accepted as one of the reasons that Serenwilde gets so many non-comms. And not the sort that are great RP-ers and craftsmen, the sort that don't know up from down and spend their time utterly lost (defying our best attempts to help them) and shouting random things. It's like Gaudi and their 'freedom'. Because they are supposed to be 'free' and 'insane' they accidentally attracted all sorts of OOC insanity and just plain stupidity when they opened. I think it's probably safe to say that some of that was just people rolling silly characters to troll Gaudi, but it can't have all been!

A bubbly forest turns off people who don't want to live in a bubbly forest. If they don't want to live in a bubbly forest, then they can move to Glomdoring. It is also an attractant for people who DO want to live in that sort of environment, such as myself. I'm sure I'm not the only person who came to Serenwilde because they wanted to live in a happy place.

Just because someone is bubbly and happy, doesn't automatically mean that they are going to be a non-comm. We may have some of those, yes, but so does every other city/commune. I am certainly not the best combatant, in fact I'm just starting to really learn how to use my skills, but I am not a non-comm. I am making an effort to learn combat and be more helpful to the commune. I even toaded my first Glom yesterday! Maybe I'm just an exception to the rule...

A completely bubbly non-comm org (forest or city) would get trolled into the ground by just about everybody.

I liked the idea suggested earlier of basically considering Maeve to be tainted and a villain herself, though I imagine trying to go down that road would lead to Hart/Moon fighting against that tooth and nail (though it would be cool if they supported/agreed with it).

Serenwilde is not a bubbly forest. If you read through pretty much anything in the fluff you will see a forest much more reminiscent of Fangorn; ancient, noble, mysterious, and dangerous to those who do not know it's ways. The forest traditionally considered the "happy" forest was Ackleberry, and it was destroyed before the events of the game. There really isn't a place for the cuddly, bubbly, happy magical forest that you and many others seem to be searching for. Lusternia is not a particularly happy world; it is defined by conflict and hard decisions, and an organization that ignores that has no place in the game.

This reminds me of far, far too many conversations I've had with Lunalo.

Serenwilde is not happy, is not bubbly, is not cheery. It is the forest of the Winter Court. It is the last true bastion of nature. Nature nurtures, but nature also kills. Our patrons include the Lord of the Hunt - a god whose very ideals revolve around natural conflict. Lisaera was the creator of Mother Moon. The triumverate that has existed in our real life mythology is displayed in the Mother, Maiden, and Crone aspects of Moon, which reflect the Fates as well. Our entire basis is Life. We are the place that attempts to make life, and nature, stronger.

A 'bubbly' attitude does nothing to honor what Serenwilde stands for in an IC sense. If people wish to RP that, fine. I wont do anything to them so long as they do not annoy others. But for Serenwilde to be true to Mother Moon and to White Hart, we need to consider our duties to life. I embrace winter, and death. As a Hunter, it is part of Hiriako's character. It is part of the cycle of life. All elements of that are important to the Serenwilde.

I just don't understand why we can't be happy AND badass. And that wasn't even the main point of my post. My main point was that we all just need to interact more. But apparently my happy interactions aren't welcome...

Don't be silly. Of course being happy and carefree is one aspect of Serenwilde. What the hell do you people think the maiden personifies? Beyond virgin nature, it represents the innocence and joyfulness of youth. It's just part of your setup, well beyond the fact that a "neutral forest commune" will invariably draw happy hippy type of characters. You can say all you like about how that's not ALL you are, and that's fine, everyone gets that (not going to stop us making insinuations about you and trees though). But it's PART of what you are, as much as the tear-stained wrist slicers are part of what Glom is, and the pretentious know-it-alls are part of what Hallifax is, and so on. Every org has their stereotype. "Bubbly" is hardly the worst of the bunch.

Being happy is of course a good thing. Even a bit "bubbly" from time to time.

Lunalo was an example of taking it way, way, way, way, way too far. Take the end of her last post, for example:

Lunalo, hoo hoo!!
I LOOOOOOOOOVEE YOUUUU!!!!!!
Hearts and daisies, darling. Hearts and daises. Sweet angel lambs...fae
dittie hands I love you! You will always mean the world to me. Oh....the
moonlight - the sweet moonlight! Oh, the sweet light, of love!!!! I love
you, how I love you - oh thank you thank you, for keeping me warm
love!!! through all tides and....open wides and....ocean prides of Sweet
love....Oh Darling, Gentle Starling - sweet heartling...peace and
love!!! I looooooove you!!!! I hope in your struggles to keep love and
peace in the forest, you do not forget the love and peace in your own
heart...I hope even as you defend this forest with passion, you forget
not the passion of everything...to be happy, healthy, and full of nature
and love. We all desire to be as happy...as the Serenwilde. Not only we
wish to be this green...and great...and beautiful. All tides wish for
better rides, for ocean wides of peace and bliss! Of beauty and, family
and, sweetness of our honey kiss! I Looooooove Youuu!! I LOOOOOOOOOVE
YOU!!!! i love you. I love you! I LOOOOOOOVE
YOUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sweethearts Wilde.... I LOOOOOOVE
YOU!!!!!!!!! Child...your beauty is like no other-you are to the world,
a loving mother - thank you dear, for all you've done...I'll shed a tear
o'er fateweaves spun....but a tear of joy, for e'ry girl and boy!!! Oh
what a wonder, spun, what a pride and joy!!! I LOOOOOOOOOOVE
YOUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!! rest well, darlings...and rise well - wake to a world
of love...and dream of all your greatest imaginings...this is all, I
wish, for every sweet bird and fish - and of course elfen, fae, and
every oth'ay....O dear, O doubt not to long your heart's shout! For
you're beautiful. In every way. Inside, and out. I love you. Here's to
you....Serenwilde
I love you, thank you for making me, feel like a child -
Embraced by the arms of Mommy and Daddy...lovingly held like a joy I'm
gladly...washed away by, enveloped in skies - of red, white, green
blue!! Of all colours too...Oh true love, O you love...Thank, you my
dear love. I LOOOOOOOOOVE YOUUU!!!!! Serenwilde.

It has surpassed bubbly. It has surpassed cheesy. This is almost trollish. Sorry Lunalo, no personal offense, but Serenwilde was never intended to have an image remotely like this.

Ok, Lunalo went so far overboard that it irritated me. I play fairly happy most of the time. When I referred to bubbly, it was more the people who go to the level that Lunalo did that came to mind. All aspects are important, but you can't overdo any single one of them.

I never viewed the Maiden as 'happy' so much as it being representative of youth and hope. The desire to see the growth of a better world.

I just finally got to reading this thread as a whole, and the pars that come to mind are the need to find some unifying identify and force for the Serenwilde. The elements of it exist, but what can we do to bring it closer? We have heavy elements of the spiritual, from the almost Native American attitudes of the Serenguard to the ancestral touch of the Spiritsingers to the fae-guided Moondancers. The Shofangi and Hartstone have their own spiritual aspects as well, as they both revere a collective spirit - White Hart and Brother Bull specifically. Could we use this spiritual aspect to try and draw the commune together? How could we do this? It's something which I've been throwing about in my mind for months. I've had some discussions with Hoaracle and various Serens about it as well, but it isn't something easy to just bring up and talking about ICly. Perhaps this would be a better forum for such conversation.

Actually, just as addendum - I don't believe that we shouldn't have 'fun' as a commune. Events and entertainment are important. I'm a big proponent of culture of all sorts. I like being active and having conversations. Half the time if I sit around not doing anything like hunting, it's because I'd like to foster more interactions of some sort. I am fully supportive of that.

Hmm, actually, that ancestor/spirit approach may have something to it.

Everiine:

Hmm, actually, that ancestor/spirit approach may have something to it.

...yes. Is that not what the Spiritsinger RP is about? The past is one of the major aspects of Hartstone too. Serenwilde already has an ancestor spirit flavour to it; a very strong one.

Arsalil:

I just don't understand why we can't be happy AND badass. And that wasn't even the main point of my post. My main point was that we all just need to interact more. But apparently my happy interactions aren't welcome...

You can be happy, you can be bubbly. My character is both, and I'm a Mag. You can't base an organization around that though. It is shallow, goofy, and frankly annoying, plus it would attract the wrong sort of people to Lusternia.
The older Serens are going to get annoyed with you for acting happy/bubby, though, since they feel that they are the ones keeping Seren from becoming the bubblegum forest, and you aren't helping. Is it rude? Sure. But I would prefer it to having to endure Singalongwilde.

Lunalo isn't even an example of what a Seren is. He's just someone who's being ridiculous, just like you'd find anywhere else. It isn't the bubbliness of Serenwilde that made Lunalo, otherwise it wouldn't be the same thing after leaving, really. It's just someone looking to be silly/trollish.

I think the bubbly/snuggly stereotype is pretty bizarre, because I never really see it. Is it that people aren't brooding and dark and curt? Is it that they say hello from time to time and general try to be nice to each other? I'm not denying we probably have some cuddly types in there, but I really do think it's exaggerated a bit! You might have one or two people take it to the extreme, but the majority of Serenwilde isn't even like that.

I honestly think most of the population is allergic to interaction or something.

(One of the big reasons Shuyin moving makes orgs suddenly 'work' is not, I suspect, that Shuyin is there, but that the support system described above follows him there. See: lots of combatants/established leaders joining Gaudi after he moved there-- especially a lot of the administrative stuff that Xiel and others put into place).

It's not even the people who follow him. Shuyin isn't some org-changing messiah who attracts a group of org-changing disciples. There were people in Glomdoring who were working hard at getting it up from the ground, and a collective effort is what brought them to the top. Also, Gaudiguch still has a long way to go, and I honestly think Seren is better off than them in many regards...but that's my personal opinion!

I said this before and I'll say it again, we have the tools to be a top org again, people just need to stop doubting it all the time and short-changing themselves. It gets annoying to hear that we don't have a Shuyin, or that we don't have a Viynain, or that we don't have a Sidd or a Xenthos or whoever else. We probably do have those type of people, but we're too hung up about things to even want to try anymore.

and Hoaracle (Who's new, and lacks a prominent Avatar a la Gregori/Sarrasri/Nejii to provide already-established legitimacy through a respected elder).

He has an avatar, though, and I would personally call them prominent. The problem with Hoaracle's order is that very few people really know what the heck it's all about. It's really confusing and unwieldy RP to work with. Sorry, but it's true.


Serenwilde definitely does have an identity problem, and it beats me as well how to solve it. I think I have a good idea of what I love about Serenwilde and what's kept me there this past year. When I first joined, I really did love the personality of the organization, it's just slowly degraded over time. A big part of this, of course, is that we have a growing ratio of new guys to oldies, and oldies are dropping off more and more. Maybe the solution is to just have some faith in the new guys and pass onto them what you know and feel Seren is about, since (as much as you refuse to admit it) they're the majority now. We just had to work with a new population, that's all.

I think this thread deserves some comment.

First of all, people need to remember that there is, more or less, a grand vision in place. Each org has a place to fit in Lusternia. Players need to be careful not to go against this role. Serenwilde's nature can be found in the histories.

I think Seren has an identity crisis in part because of the way it came out. When Lusternia came out long ago, there were only three communities. Celest, Serenwilde, and Magnagora. Serenwilde did not have Glomdoring--Glomdoring as it started was the remnants of the commune, just an empty place filled with undead and some quests. Now, Serenwilde was the neutral organization, sort of in-between, allying with both sides from time to time. Serenwilde also seemed to get the bulk of the population of Lusternia. It was really the most popular place and seemed to get the most players. This also lead to different interpretations. I think several things happened that sort of confused Serenwilde. First of all, I think a lot of players didn't see the darker side of Serenwilde. I have a feeling Serenwilde is good, but they also have some sterness to them and I suspect there was a little too much Hippie Commune and too little "The Wicker Man" perspective. I think a lot of people looked at it as "Neutral Good" when it could be seen as slightly darker at times (I'll bet it attracted some people thinking it was the "truly good" org as Celest was a little to Militant and emboddied both the positive and negative aspects of a psuedo-Christian Crusader nation).

Then came Glomdoring. When Glomdoring came out, it kind of shocked a few people. Glomdoring was a little different than what was envisioned, it was kind of like a cult more than an evil org. There was a group strongly advocating the return--the disciples of crow--and it turns out when all was said and done a different org (The Summer Court) held the most power. (The admin had stated that they didn't want Glomdoring to become "Magnagora 2.0"). Meantime, at that time Seren was the top dog, with Glomdoring having to avoid being "beat down" by the org.

Plot steps were taken to help enforce the vision and sort of calm things down, but players kept rebelling a bit. Serenwilde and Celest were really buddy buddy, but they had Terentia and Lisaera go to war, and some people actually left Serenwilde for Celest (Malicia being the most memorable). Meanwilde, Isune was more or less tricked into assisting Viravain in transformed the forest from Taint to Wyrd, and that link also had Celest getting a little closer to Glomdoring. I saw this as Nature sort of healing the Taint into something less offensive, and I suspect that is what the admin want the players to consider. There have been other changes--one of the most traumatic was the Fae no longer being the exclusive property of the Seren, with Maeve chastising Serenwilde and the revelation that summoning the fae for Moon was (in some aspects) a little like enslavement, and then there's the Lake prophecy about "Moon" and a dark side to it and the commune city wars. People have called this a retcon, and while it can be argued either way, I truly think that it fits the "shades of grey" sort of mentality that fills all of Lusternia's orgs. But players had some trouble with that and I saw some strong leaders retire.

Glomdoring also had problems--both player and admin related--Glomdoring ended up having to change Viravain dramatically because the RP became a little toxic--it was hard to keep new people in the commune, and it also went a little too overboard on the xenophobia and isolationism if I remember correctly. Some leaders quit, but in any event Glomdoring eventually grew into a powerful org. It was very slow--I retired from player regularly in Spring 2008, and when I came back into regular activity in mid 2010 they were the number 1 org in the Basin, and the Serenwilde is a shadow of itself.

One thing to remember that there is another axis besides the polar opposite of the "opposing org", and that's commune vs. city. That's a prime feature of Lusternia, and that's why you have major plots revolving around that. So, both Serenwilde and Glomdoring need to deal with that perspective. That's very critical--there may be wars, but they are related with a common purpose as well, and can team up from time to time, more so than the city orgs I believe. You have to accept that as being part of things.

I'm not sure what's happened with Serenwilde in recent years. I suspect part of the problem was when the lost cities came back others moved their or formed alts. Lendren's constantly posted about some sort of malaise of the population--I wasn't sure I saw a problem, but I've seen it mentioned here a lot. I'm trying to see if the lessons learned by Glomdoring could be adopted to Serenwilde, but there seems to be a difference. Glomdoring was so small it was in serious danger of being deleted (or left to die out on its own with no admin support). But they turned it around.

I don't think it was smart for players to reject Hoaracle though--he was probably trying to set players on the right path, and like Estarra commented on the Ask Estarra video series, you can burn out a god real fast if you do that--and then you are left with nobody to help you. I'm not sure what the admin can do. Perhaps steps plot wise can be taken to put Serenwilde back on track, but the players are going to have to cooperate somewhat. It seems the ones most invested in Serenwilde who know the history don't play there anymore--perhaps a long time Glomdoring person can come back, or a long retired character.

Phred:

First of all, people need to remember that there is, more or less, a grand vision in place. Each org has a place to fit in Lusternia. Players need to be careful not to go against this role. Serenwilde's nature can be found in the histories.

I don't get this. Players should be part of a role. There should be no 'watch out, you're going against what we want this org to be', as long as people aren't flagrantly being OOC. If a bunch of people legitimately join Serenwilde, and perpetrate a successful conspiracy to change Serenwilde, Serenwilde should be changed! If the leaders of Serenwilde happened to get together and decide that we want an alliance with Glomdoring because they are correct about the Wyrd, why should admins step in and reverse it? Our Patron would rage, then we would make one of our dead gods our Patron.

Phred:


I saw this as Nature sort of healing the Taint into something less offensive, and I suspect that is what the admin want the players to consider. There have been other changes--one of the most traumatic was the Fae no longer being the exclusive property of the Seren, with Maeve chastising Serenwilde and the revelation that summoning the fae for Moon was (in some aspects) a little like enslavement, and then there's the Lake prophecy about "Moon" and a dark side to it and the commune city wars. People have called this a retcon, and while it can be argued either way, I truly think that it fits the "shades of grey" sort of mentality that fills all of Lusternia's orgs. But players had some trouble with that and I saw some strong leaders retire.

The Wyrd is widely seen to be a perversion of Nature, and in that fashion worse then the Taint, which is merely a perversion. Even if it is only partly Tainted (though I contest this IC, for various reasons), it's still quite evil and quite bad, because all relationships with the Taint are. We've got things like the entire Seren Civil War event to back that up.

Phred:


One thing to remember that there is another axis besides the polar opposite of the "opposing org", and that's commune vs. city. That's a prime feature of Lusternia, and that's why you have major plots revolving around that. So, both Serenwilde and Glomdoring need to deal with that perspective. That's very critical--there may be wars, but they are related with a common purpose as well, and can team up from time to time, more so than the city orgs I believe. You have to accept that as being part of things.

Having a prime Seren concept be 'Go against the cities' isn't going to work with the mechanics of the game. If Glom and Seren were to team up, reject the cities, and spark a City vs. Commune war again, Communes would lose. It would be Hallifax+Gaudiguch+Magnagora+Celest vs Glomdoring+Serenwilde. No amount of Choke/Succumb spamming would get us out of that one. Xion would go off with far less of a hitch then I bet it's intended to, and there would be bad times. The necessity of strong alliances to combat other alliances means that you can't pitch any nation against another class of nation without considering that doing so may stomp someone into the ground.


I'm not sure what's happened with Serenwilde in recent years. I suspect part of the problem was when the lost cities came back others moved their or formed alts. Lendren's constantly posted about some sort of malaise of the population--I wasn't sure I saw a problem, but I've seen it mentioned here a lot. I'm trying to see if the lessons learned by Glomdoring could be adopted to Serenwilde, but there seems to be a difference. Glomdoring was so small it was in serious danger of being deleted (or left to die out on its own with no admin support). But they turned it around.

Phred:

I don't think it was smart for players to reject Hoaracle though--he was probably trying to set players on the right path, and like Estarra commented on the Ask Estarra video series, you can burn out a god real fast if you do that--and then you are left with nobody to help you. I'm not sure what the admin can do. Perhaps steps plot wise can be taken to put Serenwilde back on track, but the players are going to have to cooperate somewhat. It seems the ones most invested in Serenwilde who know the history don't play there anymore--perhaps a long time Glomdoring person can come back, or a long retired character.

As I said above, if you were to (let's say) pit Serenwilde against Magnagora, you leave Serens with two choices: 1) Ally up with Celest/Glom/Gaudi, fighting against Mag/Hallifax. 2) Ally up with no one, and be against Celest/Glom/Gaudi AND Mag/Hallifax, lose combat capability. The first just isn't going to happen, the second no one wants to happen. So, the third option was chosen: Ignore attempt to be pitted against current allies. The right path for every nation is to stand alone, but no amount of gods commanding people is going to get it done. Generally, gods coming in and commanding people to do things randomly is met with boycotting that god and ignoring their commands, look at Fain recently!

Reading your post, it seems like you were building towards a well reasoned and important point, I'm just not sure exactly what it was... We (at least I) agree that Serenwilde is sort of milling around lost, what do you propose we do about it? Hopefully not just play along with whatever anyone who seems important tells us.


EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is that I think that you are calling for railroading us back on course, and I'm not sure why anyone would want more railroading. I feel like that's part of what got us into this mess.