When a Nihilist and I compared his Demonweb to his Symbol when I had no defenses or proofs up, the Symbol did a whopping 6% extra damage!

The excoro bonus damage is pretty tame.

You're testing two different attacks, so they won't have the same base damage. You need to test a Nihilist symbol versus a Celestine symbol to make any real comparison.

They have the same base damage. I tested against Mr. Tentacles.

I assume symbol and radiance damage are also the same, just differently typed.

Razenth:

They have the same base damage. I tested against Mr. Tentacles.

I assume symbol and radiance damage are also the same, just differently typed.

Thanks Raz.

Regarding player damage, players can't just simply get more DMP for Div/Exco. The sources of that are very limited, and even if maximized, it would still be on the low end of net resists, unless they intentionally totally neglected another area.

Even if it were an issue, a claim that it is easier to address bashing is no reason to ignore Exco being better for PvP in the comparison. If that were done, you'd just be ultimately giving divinus users the ol' middle finger and just have a whole different set of people upset about the thing.

Furthermore, while Divinus is nice, it's being grossly overplayed in terms of its impact on bashing.

I was a Paladin, pre righteous arms change, pureblade, fire runes.
Then I was a Cantor, with 50div/50fire starchord damage split, large magic damage rune.
Now I'm a tahtetso, full on blunt damage save the fire runes.

My kill rate as a cantor, both per hour on astral, and as a rough proportion of kills in astral groups, was respectable, but not chart-topping. In fact, I was outstripped by both mages and druids on seperate occasions, as well as frequently blademasters of different stripes. This was the case both against fire resistant mobs and fire vulnerable mobs.

I'm not trying to downplay Divinus from what it is. It is certainly a superior damage type in terms of bashing. However, the narrative presented in this thread of exactly how powerful it is doesn't jive with my experience at all.

Mal, you in particular should be able to appreciate this sort of exaggeration- since monks suffer for a flawed preception that, to this day, over states their bashing capabilities.

I'll never claim to be a great combatant, but I'm comfortable saying that I'm easily in the upper tiers of bashing capability. As a Tahtetso, I can't even use Divinus. As a Celest citizen, I wind up bashing with people who use it all the time.

And I'll tell you honestly. In terms of the "I feel slightly annoyed because the person I'm bashing with is a corpse magnet and I could make a better offering for this time going solo" factor? It isn't Celestines or Cantors that generate that feeling. It's top end blademasters (especially against cutting vuln mobs), and mages/druids.

In the main I agree with you wholeheartededly Akui, but there are some situations where that differs. Cantor bashing (without a crit rune) in Icewynd for example, far outstrips me as an Aslaran Blademaster with 20str, Kirigami, Darkbeer (for 5 extra DMP damage at sober), ChaosAura (most Icewynd except for Forsaken is weak to Psychic damage), War Blessing and Goodluck for increased crits. Even if I use off-spec hammers which output the same damage as on-spec weapons, have a 4-6% higher miss rate, but are still better against blunt weak cutting resistant mobs like Ice Devils, I'm totally outclassed by Cantors.

This obviously isn't the case in most areas. I actually think this is a good thing though, for example, compare me against a Cantor in Muud and I'll tear through the area much faster than they can. I do think the guys dealing Ex damage could do with a bit of help on the bashing front. The PK argument is slightly moot, the only OP damage class that I deal with at the moment are Geos, even Cantor's can't outpace my healing with a level 2 fire malus but Geo's definitely can and I'm not sure they deal Ex damage?

I should add, Pyromancers bashing Ice Devils make me cry like a little girl, their corpse attrition rate is insane. I've also seen how good crit runes are by bashing with people like Ardmore and Zynna, a level two or three crit rune is definitely worth the price and I'll be getting a level 1 in Feb.

EDIT: I should also add, having bashed with monks recently, their bashing sucks compared to Faeling/Aslaran BM.

Well yeah, Icewynd. Demon ice monsters vs. Div/Fire. It would be like the egg-shell creatures from the plane of "we hate cold stuff" attacking the aquamancer guild hall.

But you acknowledged that it was a special case. I just wanted to reiterate it, because it really is a best/worst case scenario.

And no, Geos are just bokers in general, but no Exco. I shudder to think what a tuned geo staff would do if that were an option.

And having been with you when we went with Viynain in to the new area? A pyro in icewynd is like a match in a fireworks factory.

And like I said, I'm not opposed to Exco getting some bashing help, just, if it is going to be made as good as divinus, then to be fair, we have to consider the PvP aspect of it. Because against the vast majority of the player base, Exco IS better.

My other objection, as stated, is the tone of the narrative making Div out to be some god weapon for bashing in an absolute sense. There are lots of options out there some people- and for those people, the exco/div issue is a practical side show. Aphix is weird now, but psychic and poison are fairly amazing damage types in general.

I mean, honestly, I'd be giving cold and blunt some love, since cold is pretty bad, and cutting seems to be somewhat better than blunt in terms of bashing resists.

Maybe Sun fae will be cold/exco vulnerable? Lets open Jojobo and find out!

I switched from BC to BM for the improved bashing overall. Up until the release of Icewynd I was pretty unhappy at just how much is blunt resistant. With the release of Icewynd though it's less of a big deal. Icewynd is pretty much the best bashing going, and most things there are now blunt weak and cutting strong. Could maybe do with another blunt weak area being released though. Admittedly, Knights have it much better than monks since we can bash with off-spec weapons if necessary, miss rate isn't too bad and we have faster balance recovery on misses as well so less of an issue.

Finally, if they open Jojobo, I call dibs on CL :P I wasn't around for Gaudi or Hallifax so I couldn't add to my list of honours :(

Regarding base damages, Eventru once said that all bashing attacks have the same damage formula. I find it really hard to believe though.

rika:

Regarding base damages, Eventru once said that all bashing attacks have the same damage formula. I find it really hard to believe though.

I'm about 99% sure that is wrong. Elementalism Blast is certainly weaker in tests than Staff Point back when I was a Geo.

Again, I am 100% cool with removing the extra PvP damage from Excoro if it is made into a more viable bashing type.

foolofsound:


I'm about 99% sure that is wrong. Elementalism Blast is certainly weaker in tests than Staff Point back when I was a Geo.

Again, I am 100% cool with removing the extra PvP damage from Excoro if it is made into a more viable bashing type.

Obviously he meant staff vs cudgel vs symbol vs athame. Can't remember if he said anything about bard attacks though.

rika:

Regarding base damages, Eventru once said that all bashing attacks have the same damage formula. I find it really hard to believe though.

rika:

Obviously he meant staff vs cudgel vs symbol vs athame.

Actually, that's not obvious from your post at all.

I'm still not sure I'm willing to buy that they have the same base damage, though that may be me being spoiled by Geo Raise Staff...

I think they do have the same base damage (wiccan/druid/guardian/mage), but obviously they have different types and buffs, and that's where things get skewed. Wiccans, for example, are purely magic, while Geomancer staff has poison/asphyx and raise staff, which increases damage by 10% (15? I'm not sure myself).

...raise staff, which increases damage by 10% (15? I'm not sure myself).

I was told 20%, though I've never personally tested it.

Reviving due to popular demand!

Please check out this and feed me all your mobs that are missing.

Bump!

Feed me your data!

Let me update this thing.

Where is your most recent table?

There is a link a few posts up.

Oh, there it is. Missed it somehow. Thanks.