No.

Actually, with Archliches, the natural state would be +2/+2. Liches get a day penalty that gives them -1/-1 INSTEAD. It makes no sense to say that they get -3/-3 from the initial +2/+2 because it's the same defense listed in DEF. I guess you're an old MtG player or something.

I always saw the natural state as being with the buff. Not sure why you're saying that the wording has been deceptive because as far as I know, most envoys have known this even before Ceren's old report.

What? No, they don't get -3/-3 from the initial. They get +2/+2 from it at night, and -1/-1 from it instead during the day. -However-, with archlich, instead of -1/-1 it is +2/+2. That means it is a total of +3/+3 from what it used to be during the day. That is +6 weight in stats from the spell pre-Archlich. Further, +2/+2 permanent is +4 weight all the time which is a completely insane amount compared to the other guild trans skills which give similar things.

To be fair, Archlich also costs 20 power per use and now, unlike comparable trans totems skills, drops on death.

That's because it is a mixture of abilities that also includes the rez-effect, which is split up between skills in other skillsets (such as Crow). So, I'm not sure how that's a fair statement at all.

I'm not discussing the rez-effect part of it, I'm discussing the other-benefits part of the package.

Then embrace undeath shouldn't take power. To get back to where you were pre-two deaths, you need 30 power plus whatever you lost in dying.

You should just have read ABs yourself. Anyway, things are always 0. A buff can give +2/+2 or it can give -1/-1. It does not give +3/+3 over -1/-1. You must have gotten things taken from you naturally as a kid to see it the way you do.

I think you need to actually read what I am typing, here.

I will say it again for you!

Old Lich: +2/+2 at night, -1/-1 during the day.
Archlich: (A skill added in to provide some small bonuses onto Lich so that everyone else getting access to it wouldn't make liches feel like they were losing out on their skill)
+2/+2 at night, +2/+2 during the day.

Now, what is the difference between old lich and new lich during the day?

That's right, it is a difference of 3 stat points weighted in both strength and intelligence.

That means that Archlich does, during the day, have a 6 point difference in weighted stats over normal lich. 6 points in difference is a very large number of stats (on two stats that are very important) for a "small bonus".

Having had Archlich and Nightkiss for a considerable amount of time. I still prefer Nightkiss. As a Titan EG I get the same stats I could as a Titan ur'Guard, bar -1 weighted INT which is made up for by the extra dex.

Lichdom's main benefit in my opinion is the ability to move before reforming, a very nice perk. Would possibly be nice if Liches could only move a certain number of rooms (3-4?) before reforming, but I really don't think the nature of the buffs is too much of an issue - +2 weighted at the top end is hardly a huge benefit.

EDIT: As to your above statement, the communes constructs more than make up for the buff Lichdom got in my opinion. Nightwraith is bloody awesome and provides an easy access route to Astral for all the sundry.

Not really. He's not comparing it to the natural state of things. He's comparing it to its alternative.

Nightwraith is a completely different effect, which is related to the Black Crypt. They're... two completely different things.

That said, Lich has a number of other things, just as Crowform does. However, the stats went from being +2/+2 at night and -1/-1 during the day to +2/+2 all the time, which is definitely excessive.

And, to the above: Correct. I am comparing it to Old Lich. Which is what the skill used to be, pre-Archlich buff.

Can't you move this to a different thread? Also, what else does archlich give?

I have never heard of this old lich. I've always known archliches and liches. So have most people playing in the past 2 years. You're still playing a game 3 years ago! (If that's when they got differentiated)

Archlich comes with the effects of lich (half-power contagion, contagion can't be gusted away, regeneration at night, and coldtouch). Archlich further comes with coldaura (which will drain out the fire vials of people who you're fighting). It'd be fine if it just had the +2/+2 at night, and +0/+0 during the day, though (archlich means no day penalty, and still has a larger stat impact on average than the other trans skills). +4 weight for 25 mins out of 60, averaging out to about 1.6 weighted stats average (the others, as far as stat points go, give +1. Poor Stagform gives +1 dex).

I appreciate that Nightwraith + Black Crypt are entirely different things but saying Archlich is excessive in comparison to other trans skills doesn't really hold water unless you look at all the surrounding elements too.

I really don't think Archlich's buffs over Lichdom are excessive though - not in the slightest. As I said before +2 weighted to INT/STR at Titan/Demi level is hardly unobtainable. Max stats for Archliches are equivalent to max stats for all other classes and at Titan/Demi its pretty easy for all Knights to achieve +5 to str.

I really don't see how you can say Archlich is excessive when Nightkiss provides huge DMP +1 Weighted Int and +10 to weapon stats, it lacks the rezz element which is admittedly quite nice, but we do have access to Crow's eggs (which need a much longer decay time) to counter this. Nightkiss/Crowform also last through death which is pretty nice all in all.

Actually, nevermind about arguing how people see it. Old lich hasn't existed for a long time and it's been replaced with Archliches (who give lichseeds) and liches. If you feel this is an issue with game balance, envoy it.

What does it matter if +2 to int/str otherwise is obtainable? That's why you stack them with the other obtainable effects... just like you do with any stat you want to increase. Further, the +2 weight to strength means that you don't have to worry about getting other things (for example, a truefavour and a herofete, or having to use Highmagic...) And, even beyond that, it also gives the intelligence (very useful for surge and avoiding mana kills). The strength part of the equation isn't so handy on the other side for Nihilists, but str/int together is a very good thing for warriors.

Edit to the above: I may.

Then could we get some DMP? 5 really isn't cutting it.

That really would be a waste of an envoy slot, I think you've got your knickers in a twist over a none issue. Having had both Nightkiss and Archlich for over an RL year each they're pretty even when taken in the context of their skillsets + buffs.

On my return I'd rather see Crucify or Ectoplasm toned down a bit - shorten scrub eq by a second or add a 1-2 second delay on crucify.

EDIT: As to what it matters with the obtainability of STR/INT buffs, I thought we balanced around End Game in Lusternia? At End Game INT/STR buffs make a minor difference.

I wouldn't mind swapping a bit of DMP in place of the coldaura and the extra stats during the day (the dmp would be all the time, and could be explained as being part of hardened undead flesh). There are definitely possibilities, but I think the stats during day and night is a bit too much.