Yeah, gg defending (prime) Serenwilde I suppose.

Yeah... the only reason we let that go through was because we were not told they were going to fix the climbing bug. There was no need to make both changes.

Choke redux, baby!

If there is an exit to the DOWN from the room you're in the trees of, you'll go DOWN before you actually climb out of the trees.

Example; loitering in the nest at the Ravenwood by Crow, D once to be in the trees above Rowena. That's where the problem would come in with shopkeepers, as someone could very well sneak down there - although, if the storeroom has no trees in it, you'd fall and break a limb or make yourself known. Generally.

It didn't work that way originally, that was a change that came around before the indoor-tree-thing.

It's how it's been since I started playing Lusty, and is still that way. Whether or not it worked that way originally is rather a moot point, isn't it, as it isn't that way anymore - and the question wasn't about how it was, but rather how it is now?

Actually, we're discussing changes-- and as that was the first change made to this overall thing (and a rather annoying one, I'm still not 100% used to it after all this time), it's still relevant to mention it. It also leads to/amplifies bugs with Brumetower.

I choked on my Caffeine Free Sugar Free Sierra Mist when I read that in the news.

I should have stayed Druid at least long enough to be OP for a month until it gets changed again.

I actually agree with Xavius. Not sure if the sapchange will be all that bad. I mean, it still costs 5 power. Might be far more useful in groupcombat now, but that's it.

It's going to make druids amazingly annoying in groups (more than demesnes already are) but the main problem is that there wasn't any need for this change when a better solution existed (and has been implemented.) There's no reason to leave it this way and to make an already-good skill and class even better, so leaving it alone would be a bad precedent.

What's good about druid-pvp? I mean, it's all about timing. This might make it a bit more fun and less frustrating for druids.
Also, it won't make them amazingly annoying, it'll be just like Moondancer aeon, just cured by cleanse instead of a purgative.

This doesn't particularly make it more interesting or less about timing. You still have to wait for the paralyse tic, although with the treebane boost even that won't be all that necessary, nor would it be if you could still only sap in trees.

"just like Moondancer aeon" is about as valid as amputate arm being "just like breakarm, except with three regen cures instead of a mending." Cleanse is a lot harder to get off than a purgative, which is why sap is much more restricted. Aeon also has to beat quicksilver repeatedly to stick; this isn't the case with sap.

More importantly than the above, though, all of which is an argument for it being a bad change, the point is really that a better solution existed and druids really didn't need this improvement. The fact that something is obviously overpowered is sufficient reason not to change something, but not the only reason.

Yes, but now they don't also have to time it with treelife, which makes it less about timing.

"just like Moondancer aeon" is about as valid as amputate arm being "just like breakarm, except with three regen cures instead of a mending." Cleanse is a lot harder to get off than a purgative, which is why sap is much more restricted. Aeon also has to beat quicksilver repeatedly to stick; this isn't the case with sap.

I was talking about groupcombat.


More importantly than the above, though, all of which is an argument for it being a bad change, the point is really that a better solution existed and druids really didn't need this improvement. The fact that something is obviously overpowered is sufficient reason not to change something, but not the only reason.

Have you ever been a druid? You can hardly bash, PvP is all about timing, and even if you stick it perfectly, you aren't allowed to make a misstake or you lose all the effort and power you put into it. With this change, they'll have a bit more of a leeway to use it. And I really don't see how sap is overpowered. I never had problems with sap, except once when Nirrti blackout'ed me and got sap in together with the demesne in blackout. That's it. I'll just go the Forren-route: "learn how to cure, plz."

No it doesn't. If an effect happens every 10 seconds, and I have to do something then, no more or less involvement is required from me than if one effect happens every 10 seconds, and another happens 2 seconds later. It's exactly as much about timing.

Yes, so was I.


Being able to have a kill where if you don't make mistakes you can nail them without their being able to escape is a good thing. PvP being about timing isn't objectively a good or bad thing, it's a preference thing. It also has very little to do with what I was saying, as does "learn to cure."

EDIT: And it doesn't have anything to do with bashing either. Let's stick to the topic at hand.

No it doesn't. If an effect happens every 10 seconds, and I have to do something then, no more or less involvement is required from me than if one effect happens every 10 seconds, and another happens 2 seconds later. It's exactly as much about timing.
--You have to time treelife with swarm and sap, otherwise you won't get them into the trees to sap. Now all you (technically) got to do is swarm and then sap, which can be done on the fly. Timing treelife with sap during combat is a lot harder.

--Yes, so was I.
What's the difference between getting nailed by a group because you were aeoned, and getting nailed by a group because you were sapped?
(Isn't aeon's delay time longer than sap's?)

Being able to have a kill where if you don't make mistakes you can nail them without their being able to escape is a good thing. PvP being about timing isn't objectively a good or bad thing, it's a preference thing. It also has very little to do with what I was saying, as does "learn to cure."
As far as I know, druids complain about having to time everything, so it seems like a bad thing to me. And it had a lot to do with what you said. You called this change overpowered, for me it's just another nuance to druid combat. If you suddenly start to lose to sap just because it's castable at the groundelevation, then it seems to me like you have an issue with curing it. Ergo: Learn to cure.


EDIT: And it doesn't have anything to do with bashing either. Let's stick to the topic at hand.

--Yes, it does. If you work on a class, everything should be taken into account. That's why guardians, even though they were good in PvP, got a bashing weapon.

So the only difference in terms of timing is if you don't have the ability to prepare your demesne.

Aeon's delay is longer than sap's by a significant amount, but it's also inf easier to cure out of for obvious reasons - most of the things that prevent you from curing it can't be cured off as easily as things like anorexia. For example, if you get off-balanced by chills, you have to concentrate and regain eq. Same applies to paralysis, webbing and stuff that prones you.

That sounds very much like a subjective thing. I haven't really gotten the impression you have, but neither of us are going to be able to give any useful evidence either way so we'll have to agree to disagree.

This change is not especially overpowered. My point is not that the change is overpowered. I will repeat the point: sap did not need a change to make it more powerful. A change that makes sap more powerful is unnecessary. Changes that make an already good ability even better without other balance issues making it necessary are bad ideas. Therefore since the only reasons this could have been, and was, implemented for have been reversed, so should this be.



You just contradicted yourself. If everything is taken into account, and guardians that were bad at bashing got a bashing upgrade, then the solution to druids being bad at bashing would be to give them a bashing upgrade. Not only is that not something that's happened here, because this has no effect on bashing whatsoever, but making druids more powerful in terms of pvp wasn't the goal either. It was compensating for a messy elevations change that has since been corrected. Since the change has been corrected, what people did in response to the change should also be corrected. If druids are bad at bashing, give them bashing upgrades. I really don't think anyone would object to that. No one minded when guardians got symbol.

Let's just agree to disagree, I am bored of this argument.

If you guys are giving up, I'll weigh in on Nejii's side.

The change was unneeded and will make druids ridiculous in group combat. Druids demesnes are very nice, and a druid inside his demesne is one of the most powerful classes (possibly behind bards?) in the game for PVP. You can escape easily, you have very nice passive offense, including a passive ability which drags people into the trees. This was always mitigated by the fact that the primary kill condition required being in the trees. This didn't really require all that much extra time or effort, but it did allow for the possibility that the person could escape if you made a mistake - that is the way it should be.

Try being a telepath and see what happens when you make a mistake with your afflictions. Or a MD who messes up your sleep-lock. When you make mistakes, people get away and you have to start over - that is the way of the game. No class should have a kill condition that allows you to make mistakes and still doesn't give the enemy a chance to escape.

EDIT:

I'm still not completely sure about the springup change. Personally I love it, it will make hunting 100x easier. Geb did make a pretty good case for it being left as it was, though, in that it means that prone is no longer a condition for breaking katas against acrobatic monks. I'm not sure yet if that will be a problem, since there are so many other ways to stop us, but it might become an issue. We'll have to see, I guess.

Don't think this will be much of an issue, I think every class has at least one way to paralyze/blind. Now Acromonk are better against proning stuff, psychomonks better against paralyzing stuff. Seems like a nice change to me! (Though imo Acromonks are better for PvP now, a lot of warriors work with proning to kill, they'll have to use poisonapplications against them now)