Those add up to 89%.



And those add up to 121%. You fail at maths, my friend.

Unless I messed up the math (which I'll check in about 45 minutes, got stuff to do), the figures are correct. They're computed from data picked up from my first stint as an envoy, not tested values. I would assume that poison rates are based on wounds after the hit. Everything else is computed after the hit. I picked that threshold for my own convenience, not because that's where I think most of a fight is. I spend a lot more time in the low-critical range, where I'm hoping the dice don't roll the wrong way (and poor Xavius' head rolls the wrong way). Warrior vs. warrior might be a different story, though.

Hey Shammypoo, ever take statistics? .33A + .33B = .55(ish) A U B.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see. Yeah, they're describing it wrong.

My post pointed out that your statement about dual-wielders starting out with a 66% affliction rate is incorrect. Also you are adding the weight in twice. You do not add another 1/9 to it, because you already added it in with the initial equation. So 2/9 is the left hand afflict/right hand no afflict. 2/9 is the left hand no afflict/right hand afflict. Last 1/9 is the left hand afflict/right hand afflict. All together, it comes to 5/9. You do not double up on the both afflictions being given, since it is only possible for both afflictions to be given in one combination. So the affliction rate of a dual-wielder at 0 wounds against a person with transcendent resilience is 55%.

Here is something to make my math a bit clearer:

On each swing, the chance of an affliction is 33% at 0 wounds and the person with transcendent resilience. Also, each chance is independent of each other. Now what you are not taking into account is that we are talking about two swings in a round. So, you have a combo you have to consider when creating your affliction rate. Now the combos that are possible are:

right hand afflict/left hand not afflict (RHA/LHNA): right hand not afflict/left hand afflict (RHNA/LHA) : right hand afflict/left hand afflict (RHA/LHA): right hand not afflict/left hand not afflict (RHNA/LHNA)

Now remember, to get the chances of any particular combo occurring (considering that the outcomes are independent of each other) then you have to perform the basic equation P*P. So bringing the information down, we have this:

(RHA/LHNA) combo = (.33)*(.67) = .2211 or 22% when rounded.
(RHNA/LHA) combo = (.67)*(.33) = .2211 or 22% when rounded.
(RHA/LHA) combo = (.33)*(.33) = .1089 or 11% when rounded.
(RHNA/LHNA) combo = (.67)*(.67) = .4489 or 45% when rounded.

Now to consider the chances that you will afflict with one poison or both poisons you add the probabilities together, since they are all independent of each other.
So 22%+22%+11%=55% That is the chance that you will hit with one or both poisons combined.

* Note: I wish I knew how to turn the emoticons off. Also, the problem with writing out long posts is that sometimes people will change theirs before you are finished.

Too much numbers..... in any case what are the odds of a pureblade/axelord hitting for slitthroat on a target with 0 woundings and the weapon capable of dealing just enough wounding to hit heavy and also land senso? And the odds of double crush by a bonecrusher with the same scenario above to land windpipe (maneuver on both crushes) and landing chansu and senso?

Well, it all boils down to the poison applications. I forget all the numbers people have mentioned, and don't feel like going back to find them to determine it. But basically, don't even count the first crush as a chance to get windpipe, I can't get windpipe off a single crush, only the second in the first combo.

So it boils down to the odds of landing senso in one strike versus landing senso and chansu in two strikes. I think 33% to 11%, as I said earlier. Maybe a bit more than 11% because with two strikes, wounds are increasing in the interim and thus affect the percentages mildly.

EDIT: These numbers are considering that poison application chances are calculated prior to wounds increasing through the attack. I think it's calculated afterwards, myself, making it 50% to 25%. I think.

I think that the numbers are out there and solid now, if occasionally misdescribed. I am somewhat chagrined to realize that I should have simply asked Xavius.

@Geb - Yes, that 1/9 gets added twice, and it should be when looking for average poison affliction rate. Look at it this way - in nine swings, two of the times a one hander will afflict with the left hand only. Two of the times with the right hand only. Once with both hands, for two poisons. That is, 5 times in 9 rounds a one hander will afflict with at least some poison.... and there will be 6 poison afflictions delivered on average over those same 9 rounds. Two with the right but not left, two with the left but not right, and two on that one time that both right and left go through.

5/9 or 55% is a measure of how likely a one-hander is to afflict with poison at all each round, 2/3 is a measure of how many poison afflictions a one-hander afflicts on average per round. At zero wounds, for both figures.

The more practical figures for combat, following Xavius, are 3/4 and 1, respectively, at wounds between light and critical.

Seconded on the emoticons, and on the long post problem.

@Nico/Clise - Assuming Xavius' figures are sound (and I see no reason whatsoever to doubt them right now), a bonecrusher has a 25% of getting both chansu and senso in a combo. Multiply that by whatever the chance is of getting windpipe with the second crush, and you have the correct situation.

Pureblades and Axelords have a 62% chance of getting senso. Multiply that by whatever the chance of getting slitthroat is.

Blademasters have a 75% chance of getting senso if they double-envenom. The reason you never see Blademaster slitlocks is the fact you cannot lunge for the lock.

If anyone has good figures on the chances of getting a wound affliction in, I'd be glad to see them. That calculation is a lot harder to get at with testing, given the many variables involved.

Slitlock can be cured by gedulah/cleanse, Windpipe by arnica/myrtle... So by all means if you wish to have it mirror slitlock, that is fine with me.

I am not here to discuss what needs swings, jabs, etc. As I see it BC's are the most superior warrior on the strict fact that they have means of keeping people proned very very easily (which we all know is hard for most non BC's to do). What I am here discussing is the simple fact that giving 2 handers even the CHANCE of getting two venoms per attack is a much better balance than what it is now.

I am putting up numbers because if everything ends up perfect one handers can end up with 4 afflictions (2 venoms and 2 afflictions) per attack. Two handers can only end up with 2 afflictions (1 venom 1 affliction). To make it a little simpler I will say it like this.

A BC can hit with breakjaw and windpipe in one round, also afflicting with senso and chansu that same round.
A PB/AL can hit with slitthroat (normally not in the first round, that is rare without drawdown/nightkiss but yes it can happen) in one round, and senso that same round.

4 > 2 that is a basic fact. 4 will outpace 2 no matter what. Just because a two hander can bring people to critical wounds quicker, does not mean that a one hander fails. In the long run a one hander having someone up to critical wounds is far deadlier than any two hander.



Sorry Sham, I used Xavius's numbers, only to make a point to give one handers AND two handers the same % chance to afflict with one/two venoms. So it was a cut and paste thing. His numbers seemed more logical than sitting and using the 4/3 9/2 etc. values others were using. Basically it was a generic way to show it. Yes the math is wrong. But I think the point was still the same (I hope)

Oh, this will be fun.



For your information, the windpipe lock is also cured by gedulah/cleanse. Nice try.


Ah, but there you err badly. First off, you must consider every aspect of combat before considering fixes to a select part of combat. Yes, BC's can prone someone. However, this prone lasts one combo unless they're already messed up. So, in the short run, BC's can get the insta-kill easier than the other specs. However, in a long drawn out fight, as tends to happen at top tiers, pureblades and axelords have the advantage because their afflictions are much more devastating and easier accomplished.



Again, compare the severity of those afflictions. Breakjaw is practically meaningless, it's an herb cure that doesn't even hinder curing/defenses. Any good curer will queue the windpipe cure before breakjaw.

Nope. Again, consider severity of afflictions. You are taking a very narrow approach to the argument, you need to realize that combat is more than gross # of afflictions applied. It's called strategizing your poisons to coordinate with your wound afflictions.



That argument doesn't make sense. At all. Not only do 2handers have more wounding, but they have better potential at their insta-kills than blademasters. Bonecrushers are better at the brainbash instakill, sure, because they can work head wounds to critical then prone/smite down for the insta, but axelords don't even need the prone with execute.


Anyways, it's not the poison affliction rate that is limiting you as a warrior. Stop making it seem so. You're arguing that the reason you lose against other warriors is because you cannot pace them with poison application rates....that's retarded. The only times poisons have ever really mattered in a warrior fight have been when I or my opponent get locked. So, while 1 handers do have the advantage in gross application rates, 2 handers obviously have the advantage in obtaining critical locks, as I have stated time and time again, and those are what have been the deciding factor for my fights. I'm sick of this argument because it's obvious you will never acquiesce to common sense and realize that it's really not that bad for you.

Edit: Double post

umm...so how do I do that...

@Krellan - Aren't you manual? Just decide to cure the windpipe before you decide to cure the jaw. Otherwise... make a topic about a queueing system on the forums, or talk to Zarquan/Iasmos, since you're both in Serenwilde.

yeah I think I'm manual? I've got some basic symptom cures. I usually go for arnica on windpipe, cause my pipes are never lit. reflexe goes for pipes though just so I don't wind up in a loop. slit and pipe locks suck cause I loop forever and they're relatively easy to pull off at least for the people I always fight against...*mutter* Nico...

So this is how you begin a response? I thought you were an adult? My bad.

So what is the problem? why are you whining about slitlock vs windpipe lock? you are the one who brought it up? So windlock is cured by cleanse/gedulah or myrtle? It still has nothing to do with not giving two poison afflictions to a two handed user. Do you want to remove myrtle from windpipe? Fine, envoy it. I see no problem with it.


You keep missing my point, stacking mass afflictions causes the target to heal alot more, takes away salve/herb balance and slowly stacks. Just because you get hit with a severnerve by a PB doesn't mean that it is so much more severe than a breakjaw + windpipe or windpipe + concussion.


Alas, who is taking a narrow approach? All you base your argument on is severity of afflictions. So are you telling us that nowhere in the BM or BC skillset are there any afflictions that are considered severe? That only PB/AL's have these so called "severe" afflictions? And honestly saying that an AL/PB has a better chance to get a behead than a BC has to get a Bashbrain is kinda funny. Assault will not give behead, but if I remember right Pulp will give Bashbrains. So nix that argument. Also when did this turn into a personal attack Nico? When did I say I alone am limited as a warrior? Not once did I even say I lose against other warriors. As I recall the only times I get creamed by you all is 3+ vs 1. All you have proven so far is that if something in any way does not benifit yourself or possibly your org, you spring to action, trying to berate people who ask questions. If you do not agree with two handed users being able to afflict as well as you in drawn out fights (which warrior vs warrior combat is always draw out, thus the reason one handers get an advantage) just disagree, then please shut up and stop posting so the grown ups can have a rational discussion without people like you, who try and win an argument by trying belittle people.

Please Nico, grow up, and if you don't like this discussion don't post.

@Krellan - Until you want to build or get a more comprehensive system, try to smoke your way out of windpipes. A BC will be doing all kinds of arnica afflictions, and I believe that you have a random chance of curing any appropriate affliction when using a cure.

As for keeping your pipes lit... make a set of triggers to keep them lit, and enable those triggers when you want to fight. Short of being in choke, you can just have an alias to light all three pipes, and fire it off as needed, as well as having it triggered on any pipe going out.

Even from a full lock, go for the smoke - cleanse, melancholic to chest, smoke. They're all on separate balances. The arnica cure is just there to make the lock require two venoms, and shouldn't be your cure of choice unless your foe missed getting slickness. Even then, unless you have another salve affliction you're focusing on, you can just melancholic/smoke.

if I'm locked i shut triggers and dance full. cures up to 5 afflictions and works well with my speed. meh too cheap to keep lighting pipes. it makes me waste herbs which makes me harvest or buy herbs cause i'm too lazy!

Wow. Just. Wow.


Actually, I'm quite drunk at this moment, but that is not preventing me from providing coherent and well-founded responses.

You were stating that the two affliction locks are not equal because your slitlock can be cured by gedulah and cleanse. Meanwhile, I was simply pointing out that my affliction lock is also cured by gedulah and cleanse. The difference is that my affliction lock takes 3 different afflictions, whereas yours takes two. Therein lies the difference and the main issue in changing the affliction rates for 2-handers and 1-handers. Already as it stands, two handers have the advantage in obtaining this lock over 1 handers, while both are as easily cured as the other.



No, actually, I'm not missing your point. I fully realize that you are arguing that poison afflictions +wound affliction stacking adds up over time. I've been conceding that it is a valid argument, however it is not the only thing you need to look at when balancing warrior combat. Like I said, I think three times now, poison stacking is not very viable unless you're either 1) using charybdon, 2) using one of the 4-5 other semi-stackable poisons, 3) fighting an incompetent curer. Most poisons are not hard to cure fairly rapidly. The dangerous poisons are those that create locks because they completely halt curing until those afflictions are cured.

You are taking the narrow approach, actually, in considering only the numerical affliction advantage of 1 handers. I did not negate the importance of poison stacking, I merely said that it is minor compared to lockability of 2 handers. As well, I never said AL/PB has a better chance to get behead. Also, I stated that while there are similarly severe afflictions available, pureblades and axelords can get them easier using limb-targettable power attacks as opposed to generic swing attacks. I explicitly said Bonecrushers have the best way to achieve bashbrains. But, Axelords have an instakill ability that doesn't even involve proning an opponent. And yes. Pulp can give bashbrains, however, pulp does not bypass parries/stances/rebounding, so that comparison to your power attacks is in no way valid.



I do not think I outright attacked you in any way, if I did I did not mean to. I merely attacked your viewpoints concerning warrior balance. As well, if I recall, I have beaten you 1v1. The only time you ever beat me was the first or second day after I returned and did not have any of the new PB afflictions. If you'd like to, I'm always available for a duel/spar.


I do not see how this is directly benefitting me and my org as opposed to other organizations. I am arguing for balance as I view that an increase on 2handed affliction rates will result in a disproportionate amount of slitlocks. I am one of the only bonecrushers in Celest. Most orgs have a similarly well spread number of pureblades/axelords/BCs/BMs. How is this bias'd towards celest?



In my experience, in a long drawn out fight, Geb had the advantage against me. Of course, he IS Geb. He's a pureblade, by the way. Oh, and if you had noticed, this entire time I've been arguing by numbers/personal opinion and not attacking anyone else's statements directly until you continued to completely ignore and then attack mine.



I just don't know how to respond to that.

Just let 2 handers get behead on assault/sweep and everyone will be happy again! ..... well everyone except blademasters, bone crushers, moondancers, hartstone, spiritsingers, celestines, aquamancers, cantors, nihilists, geomancers, cacophony, shadowdancers, blacktalon, harbingers, rogues, newbies and anyone that doesn't use 2 handers!

Maybe you shouldn't post drunk any more, Nico.

BC/BM versus PB/AL really boils down to just being two different sets of strengths and weaknesses. You could discuss statistics and fairness until you're blue in the face (which seems to have happened here, except it's more of a crimson shade of blue), but in the end it doesn't really mean much because every Knighthood specialization is unique, and they all have the same potential for greatness as they're currently implemented. I mean, here I was thinking that two-handers had it good, or even Blademasters, because of all the regeneration cures and the impaling and the bleeding...