Yes, but they have to get to critical wounds to do it (which is not a certainty against everyone).

@Ildaudid - Upgrade announcement is 680, I believe. Doesn't specify 75% there, though.

@Geb - Agreed, for a given specific poison, a two-hander can often inflict it just as reliably as a one-hander. A one hander generally has to either use the same poison on both weapons, and risk rendering a double-affliction meaningless in order to obtain through redundancy a reliability equal to that of a two-hander, or accept a lower chance of getting that specific venom while having a chance to also inflict another. Mactans, ibululu (depending on truehearing), charybdon, escozul, calcise, and dendroxin can all be double-envenomed without concern, though.

I do not think there is ever any point at which a two-hander pulls ahead in average poison afflictions generated per round. The best a two-hander can do is 2/3 at critical, which is what a one-hander does at zero wounds.

Geez, I should browse the forums more often to see what smack y'all are talking about me here.... Bleh.

Anyhow, with regards to warrior wounding stuff that seems to be so popular, I think two-handers with very high wounding swords/axes (coughlisarelcough) can take you from none to high-medium to heavy in one hit, meaning they can open combat with higher level afflicts than a one-hander can, who can possibly get to high-medium IF they hit with both. However, what with stancing, parrys, and the like, I'm not sure how likely that is. And yes, I'm aware they get twice as many swings. It seems to me that the 1-h vs 2-h damage and wounding curves are inherently different. 1-handers are more "consistent" in that the attack is spread over two hits, thus they'll hit more around the average per combo, whereas 2-handers get more of the "extremes" since it's hit... or not. The only real question is then, in my opinion, is the average of the curves comparable?

That statement is incorrect. A dual-wielder does not have a poison affliction rate of 66% at 0 wounds (I assume you are including shrugging). They have a 44% chance to afflict with one poison at 0 wounds and a 11% chance to afflict with both poisons at 0 wounds.

Small weapon poison rate:

No wounds, trans resilience:
33% chance of landing left-hand poison, 33% chance of landing right hand poison, 11% chance of landing both, 45% chance of landing no poison at all.

Low-heavy wounds, trans resilience:
50% chance of landing left/right hand poison, 25% chance of landing both, 25% chance of landing neither

Critical wounds, trans resilience:
67% chance of landing left/right hand poison, 44% chance of landing both, 10% chance of landing neither.


Large weapon poison rate:

No wounds, trans resilience:
50% chance of landing poison

Low-heavy wounds, trans resilience:
62% chance of landing poison

Critical wounds, trans resilience:
67% chance of landing poison

-----------------

I don't profess to know what is or is not balanced for a warrior. I just wanted to get you better numbers than Vaerhon's. Side note, a robe wearer will be in low-heavy wounds after pretty much any hit from a two-hander, whereas I'm usually in the medium range for all except scimitar or really high-strength hits from one-handers.

8)
Can't wait for the +2/+3 to STR. 24 str, ftw.

Tae'dae str is nice. Envy.

Easy way out there, bud. :>

Those numbers don't add up.

All these poison affliction rates are nice and all. Interesting, actually. Only point I have to make is it's not really the affliction rate that becomes dangerous, as most poisons are easily cured within seconds of the strike (besides charybdon, which requires some diagnosing, but most of those afflicts have secondary lines anyways).

As a forenote, I'm going to assume that poison application rates are calculated after the wounds are applied, similar to wounding afflictions. I will also use Xavius' percentages for application.

The problem lies in the fact that two handers are able to obtain locks with fewer poisons and greater ease. A slitlock from a pureblade/axelord merely requires a power attack and the 62% chance that slickness will hit, depending on strength and target tankiness. Now, if two handers were allowed two poison strikes, this would make slitlocks ridiculously easy to obtain.

Meanwhile, bonecrushers require two poisons to hit (25% chance) along with windpipe in order to soft-lock someone. This fact balances out the poison application difference between the one handers and two handers. Blademasters also have the chance to slitlock with a single strike, however, they cannot slitthroat with a power attack, not to mention getting target head wounds as a blademaster is a pain, and largely fruitless.

In conclusion, while one-handers do have the poison advantage in sheer applications over the course of the fight, two-handers have the advantage in obtaining the critical applications in terms of locks. Honestly, I'd rather have the latter advantage against a good curer.


EDIT: The following is just to clarify on the locks.

Pureblade : Can use assault to bypass parries/stances to hit head and get the slit throat. 62% application rate.

Axelord : Can sweep to bypass parries/stances to get slit throat. 62% application rate.

Bonecrusher : Can crush to bypass parries/stances to get windpipe. 25% of both poisons applying.

Blademaster : Cannot lunge for slit throat. Must avoid parries/stances and hit with a swing attack (not directly targetted on limb). 50% application rate for 1 of the poisons.

Daganev, they do.
33% left hand, 33% right hand.
45% no poisons, 22% left hand only, 22% right hand only, 11% both poisons. Roughly.

Arrgghhh, I had written a detailed post concerning my viewpoint but it crashed...or something.

EDIT: Nevermind, it did post.

It isn't about afflictions or locks, it is more about how much more damaging poisons are with the capability of hitting with 2 venoms. From looking at the above analysis, there would be no harm in letting 2 handers to have a 44% chance of landing both at crit as the one handers get.

If you think of it in afflictions etc..... One handers far exceed two handers simply by this:

One handers get two swings, giving them the chance for 2 afflictions AND a chance for 2 venom to hit.

Two handers get one swing, giving them the chance for 1 affliction AND a chance for 1 venom to hit.

Per round chance of total afflictions for one handers = 4 max possible afflictions
Per round chance of total afflictions for two handers = 2 max possible afflictions

So if left uncured and in a perfect fight, in 5 rounds a one hander will have hit 20 afflictions/venoms while a two hander falls behind to 10 afflictions/venoms.


Now if it was brought up to par it would be:

One handers = 4 max (two swings/two venoms)
Two handers = 3 max (one swing/two venoms)

I see no reason why two handers cannot have the same possible 44% chance at critical to hit with 2 venoms that the one handers get. Actually it makes it a little better balanced.

You're completely missing the point. That proposal would give two handers a huge advantage in getting locks.

Envision the following: I am pureblade, I envenom my greatsword fully with senso.

I assault head, resulting in the slit throat.
First senso poison application chance at 50%.
Second senso poison application chance at 50%.

Almost guaranteed slitlock, first assault. At critical, it's absolutely guaranteed.


Like I mentioned earlier, pure poison stacking isn't noticeable. For one, poisons don't stack. You can't lay on to someone with 5 slickness afflictions, the only poison that works like that is Charybdon.

Not to mention, poisons are fairly easily cured and don't have a big impact on trans'd warrior combat unless you manage those locks.

What are the chances of slitthroat hitting upon first swing from a 2 hander? For that matter, what are the chances for a bonecrusher to land windpipe with 1 combo?

It's all dependent upon strength, somewhat dex, target defenses, etc.

Against cloth wearers, I almost always get a windpipe in the first combo using crushes.

@Geb - Look back. The 2/3 figure is what you get when you weight the chance of a double poison affliction to reflect the fact that you get 2 afflictions. A one-hander has 2/9 chance of getting the left hand but not the right (1/2(poison rub)*2/3(shrug bypass)=1/3 for overall affliction, then that 1/3*2/3(chance of missing the other overall afflict)=2/9), a 2/9 chance of getting the right hand but not the left, and a 1/9 (1/3*1/3 - both overall afflicts)chance of getting both. 2/9 + 2/9 + 1/9, + 1/9 again for the weighting, gets you 6/9 or 2/3. The average number of poison afflicts per round needs to be weighted, or you undercount every time a double affliction occurs.

This is not the same number as the chance of getting at least one poison to afflict in a round, which I posted was 1/2. That was in error. The proper number is slightly higher - 5/9, and is the same figure as the above calculation without the weighting.

The source of that error lay in calculating the chance of at least one poison rubbing off (3/4), and then applying a single shrug chance to that. I have no idea why I did not check the result against the more detailed calculations I was doing for the average affliction rate, or indeed what I was thinking when I chose to do that.



Assuming those figures are sound, in the intermediate zone where most combat takes place one handers have a 3/4 chance of landing at least one poison and an average affliction rate of 1. Two handers have a .62 chance of landing one, and a .62 average affliction rate.

@Nico No question, blademasters have the hardest time getting a lock due to being unable to bypass stance/parry for the afflict. However, if they are willing to double envenom senso, the venom chances of getting it rise to 3/4, better than any other specialization out there. I expect that this is cold comfort to them.

The slitlock for a pureblade with double applications wouldn't be guaranteed - I am assuming that the poison rub chance would be brought back to one hander rates if two handers could double-coat. At present, two handers have a 62% chance to get the venom. With double senso and one-hander rub chances, a 75% rate. Even if the rub chances stayed at the two-hander rate, it would be a 77% chance.

There are other poisons which can be repeatedly afflicted without waste besides charybdon, though most top out at two useful simultaneous afflictions.

As to blademasters: Yeah, I agree. They do have the best application rate of getting senso to stick. But, it is ridiculously hard for them to get a slit throat on anyone who knows what they're doing. I could stand still for an eternity against most blademasters and never ever have to worry about slit throat.

And yes, the slitlock for pureblade/axelords isn't guaranteed, but the % chance of getting it each attack is so high that it makes it almost as such. 75% chance for a slit lock is a -lot-. Right now I have a base 25% chance of sticking both chansu and senso in my windpipe combo, but I manage to do it frighteningly often. (Champ helm helps)

Yeah, I know other poisons can be stacked, mactans (freeze-3 stacks - strip fire, chills, frozen), morphite (strip insomnia, sleep), calcise (2 legs), dendroxin (2arms), and escozul (power drains). Escozul is the only unlimited use one.

Actually no, I am not missing the point. I am not saying keep two handers with the same affliction % chance they have now, I am saying lessen the affliction rate to that of one handers..

This should be the standard for two handers:

No wounds:
33% of landing one poison, 11% chance of landing both, 45% chance of landing no poison at all.

Low wounds:
50% chance of landing one poison, 25% chance of landing both, 25% chance of landing neither

Crit wounds:
67% chance of landing one poison, 44% chance of landing both, 10% chance of landing neither.

Why is there such a problem with this? There should be no problem at all. If it is done this way. One handers and two handers will finally fall in line with afflictions. Closing the gap. Like I stated before:

4 max possible afflictions per round is >> 2 max possible afflictions per round. That is a 100% increase in max possible afflictions, so I cannot begin to understand why certain warrior specs should have this great of an advantage over the others.

By making it with the standard above for both one and two handers... that would make 4 max possible afflictions vs. 3 max possible afflictions per round. This is a much better scenario. Honestly, there should be no problem with this.

If it's changed to be like that, then I'll request that windpipe be changed to mirror slit throat, in that you would not be able to smoke myrtle to cure windpipe. The important difference is that your lock only requires 2 afflictions while mine requires 3.

Then it'd really be fair in terms of poison application rate. But of course, that'd be overpowered, so it'd be outright silly to do so. Just as silly as it is to change it to two poison applications at the one handed rate for two handers.

At no wounds, you still have 33% chance of landing your lock compared to my 11%. At medium wounds, 50% chance of landing your lock compared to my 25%, etc.


EDIT: Oh and also, you cannot and should not compare strict numerical amount of afflictions as justification. You need to take into account those afflictions and the cures inherent to them. For instance, at heavy wounds I can break legs, which requires a mending cure on a 2 second balance (or is it 1?). At heavy wounds, a pureblader can tendon which has a delayed regen cure. There's a large difference in the severity of these wounds. Even in the critical range, you cannot compare them strictly numerically, as purebladists and axelords are able to use targettable power attacks to obtain their nasty afflictions, like amputate. Meanwhile, bonecrushers still have to use a normal swing attack for mangled leg, and blademasters finally can lunge for tendon.

Add on to that, the wounding potential of two handed weapons far exceeds the wounding of two 1 handed weapons. There are advantages and disadvantages to both groups of warrior specs. In the end, I find them fairly balanced nowadays. I think Blademasters still need head jabs, but no one listens to me because all they think about is pinleg and they immediately cry for mommy.