When was Dissolve changed? From what I remember, it took balance but not equilibrium. So a person could staff and strip, phantoms and strip, etc. I also remember it using up balance, but it was very quick. It was far faster than a single person could reapply the protection, but it was not so fast that a mage could strip a whole group with one alias instantly.

Generally, yes, it's expected that you'll have at least 1 person with 1 skill out of that whole list in your nation, and they’re not all at trans; that being said, keeping defenders barricaded into their nexus on ethereal/cosmic is a viable tactic and one I've seen work while defending 3/4ths of the nations at one point or another on alts. Yes it is harder to tie down druids/wiccan commune members while they are on their own turf, due to trees, but you are not without your own unique options, no matter how hard you claim the opposite vehemently.

This reminds me of two other circumstances actually, and in both of those rifts were used and maintained for long periods of time to solve the problem until it died down. Might it be distorted, sure, might they try to unravel unlikely, even a single novice could disrupt that plan alone, and every moment they spend trying to circumvent your security measures is more time to prepare for their attack. As for other early warning signs? Free scry/window ftw!

Perhaps that's correct geb, none the less, I beleive at one point you agreed that it's balanced because rubble hurts alllies as well, while swimming doesn't. Now, I really wish Forren would just concede instead of latching on to a skill that doesn't belong.

I have a question for everyone that had complaints about summoning into the Nexus being unsportsmanlike. Do you feel blocking off the single exit leading from the Nexus of a Nation leads to more enjoyable group combat for everyone involved? I can give my answer as a person who felt being summoned into an enemy nexus on the outer planes was fine. I personally feel the tactic is on the same level as summoning people into the nexus. Just like being empressed had defenses against it, the possibility of the Nexus being blocked can be reduced by people periodically checking the plane. When I am present, I periodically check the planes for enemies. I personally wish more of our people would take the initiative to kill the starsucker and influencing the Angels, because then it would be a bit harder for enemies to set up demesnes all the way to the room below the pool without anyone knowing (If they are there to actually fight people that is).

Anyhow, I do have another point. It is that some of you here, who were just complaining a week ago about unsportsmanlike group combat tactics, are now here supporting tactics that appear to me to be on a similar level with the previous tactics complained about. Then again, those complaining about the new tactics being used were just as vehemently stating last week that the summoning into the nexus tactics were fine. Oh well, I think we all just need to actually come to some agreement on what are valid tactics and what are not. Right now, it seems to be the general attitude that anything that hinders me is bad, anything that hinders my enemies is good. All sides are guilty of this additude, so all sides perhaps need to work to reactify the problem.




I have not changed my view on currents and rubble. I was just asking when had dissolve changed, because when I had it I do not remember it working the way you mentioned.

I was stating that I believed the need for a trigger should be removed, weather pro summon or anti summon was not my point in the other thread, I just think the guards killing you and needing a trigger to circumvent that should be removed entirely, weather to completely allow non-prime summon without a trigger to save you, or to make it so the trigger won't save you (yes, I know that it may not be possible to get my way with how the coding behind it works). I was still seeking clarification, as were many others, not taking one side or the other. I was anti-trigger in that thread and pro-using skills in this thread, I don’t think they are mutually exclusive or make me contradict myself in doing so.

You make it seem like I mentioned your name or something.

No it is never a pain for an envoy , when I get back from this blizzard drive to the airport, and you have time, I will test it too... I will also see if I can find someone to pollute me just so I can see it also... But yeah Forren will not stop to help test something when he knows the outcome may support some other peoples ideas (teasing you Forren)

edit - oh and I will energy link you the power if that is a problem, I mean for test purposes, it will be no problem making sure you have enough power to test it.




Hah thanks Avaer , oh and Clise.... when you have a defense party coming to defend a plane, you normally have a few decent fighters who have those skills. Another thing is "fly" go to another elevation and move.... and no one can say that that is too high up for people to get... it is a basic cosmic skill or celestine skill. If a celestine cannot fly, they really shouldn't be up defending yet either.



Geb, you are right. But Wesmin beat me to the answer. I like Wesmin had a problem with the auto triggering to bypass guard death, not the summoning.... And no you may not be referring to me either but.... you know I posted alot about this already... So I just want you to remember that on that other thread about every page somewhere was a post from me, stating....... Auto Triggers are the problem... and that a delay to unenemy was my solution.... and that I had no problems with the actual summon.

Not true Ildaudid. I have been in many defense where we were severely outnumbered and had I been offline, all they had would have been people 10-20% of my might. And while I was on alts, there were raids on Celestia when Celest only has 3 or less defenders who can't crash, tumble or stuff. As always, people only raid when they can garner an advantage.

Also fly, yes people can fly over the wall that is blocking I agree, but how do you propose to allow people who can't fly to get to the flyer when you cannot teleport out of the nexus. Also the issue of great pentagram with a flamed monolith needs to be looked into as well. Unlike a wall where there may still be options to bypass if you have the people on with the necessary skills, Celest has no chance of breaking that.

Those of us who have participated in raids or defense would know that raiders always have an advantage most of the time, and that defenders cannot constantly scry potential enemies all the time. No matter how you wish to put it or define it, reality takes precedence. All orgs have suffered raids, and all who suffered knows that defenders need to be lucky ALL THE TIME, whereas raiders only have to be lucky that one time.

Yes, I see your point, that is why I thought that a 5min block from being able to unenemy someone would have worked alot better. Thus causing people who summon to get enemied and not bypass it with the auto trigger.... Hmm.... the main problem seems this teleport out thing.... and I guess if someone actually uses greater pent, shield, sit and burys a flamed monolith.

But in all reality, the way Celest was before was a little too easy for them, with 4 exits and us having to pass them all the time while they spam beckoned us into pits and guards. Now if you cant beckon etc, I see that not as much of a problem anymore.... But I still think they should have a 2 exit max from the Pool, like Nil.

Most the times I have gone on raids to Celest, if there is no one with half of these skills on, no Celestian even bothers going up, so I never stop really to think there could be a small few who actually do go up. But like this defense Acrune was on, well he can fly, Malica can tumble/serpent, Forren can tumble all of these people had no real reason why they couldn't get down there. Also as soon as Forren finally crashed the wall, he could have had someone else set up a fire wall or an icewall... With that group, there isn't really much of a reason why they didn't get past... But I see your point on the small groups that have NO one with some of the skills....

Although I was not one of those whose problem with summoning in and out of enemy territory was because it was 'unsportsmanlike' (although I sure as hell wanted it changed for other reasons), I would like to respond to your question.

First, regarding enjoyable group combat - the phrase to me is an oxymoron. Group combat generally devolves into ganking simply because it is the most effective and successful strategy, and I cannot see how any superior force obliterating a smaller one is ever enjoyable for both parties. In the phenomenally rare cases where group combat involves two equally matched forces, there may certainly be some strategy regarding who will attack or hinder who, but I have seen at best one case where this was ever an issue in a group fight - usually it is simply a matter of deciding which opponent will be ganked first. Perhaps this is simply a matter of my personal experience, of course, and in fact there are often strategic group fights, I don't know. At the very least it seems to be incredibly rare if it does happen.

As to your question, many existing tactics are predicated upon the hindering of movement to be effective - demesnes of all kinds, bardic perfectfifth, warrior impalements, telekinetic barrier, highmagic greatpentagram, rituals carcer, moon shafts, night bonds, illusory walls, regular walls, and so on. In most of these cases, the idea is to keep a single target from leaving a location which in some way benefits the user, almost universally because it is easier to potentially kill the target. Every single one of these tactics has counters (some less realistic than others, admittedly - barrier and shafts are both difficult to overcome in different ways), and I would go so far as to say that they add to the strategy and tactics of combat because the entirety of the battle is not focused solely on what you deliver to your opponent and what they deliver to you, it's also about manipulating your external environment to your advantage. Therefore, I don't think movement hindering abilities in general are unsportsmanlike, and this includes using stonewalls, because with counters they allow for more interesting yet still balanced combat.

What about this particular case though? Is it fair that an ability can interfere with the defensive efforts so seemingly effectively? That would depend on how effective it really is. If there are no realistic and obtainable counters to the strategy, then yes, it would be unsportsmanlike to use a tactic which denies your opponent reasonable participation and chance of success. I'm yet to be convinced that potential counters are excessively limited. I do think that a second exit could be added to the Pool room, because that would make the strategy a little less easy to apply and would be more in line with what the other orgs have, but even so I've listed a few viable methods that could be used to get around the wall with one exit. I will say that if checking the plane is the only way to guard against the Nexus being blocked, it is not a reasonable defense in my opinion, but until all those other options are proved ineffective I don't think it is the only way.

There is also one other difference between summoning into enemy territory and blocking the exit of defenders from a safe area (and there is surely worse than blocking the exit from friendly territory - what about a wall at the entrance to a distorted mining village, blocking the escape of enemies - is this not more worthy of an outcry if it is possible?). In the former case, the accepted risk of the summoned characters goes up dramatically - not only are they shifted into a place where the penalty for loss (death) is much higher, the risk of that happening shoots up astronomically because of additional defensive measures like guards. In the latter case, the accepted risk of the trapped characters is not really affected, they may be frustrated in their defensive efforts and thus collectively lose the organizational battle, but their personal level of risk is unchanged.

I hope this makes sense, because I'm not feeling very eloquent today, but if not, meh... I'm sure I'll be torn apart regardless.

Please can we get over the Aquamancers - Geomancers debate. We don't want the skillsets identical, so shall we just stop comparing them in minute detail and demanding they be made equivalent?

Frankly, the skillsets have less to do with it than each player's personal ability. Whatever the minutiae of differences, that's what it comes down to. If you have the brain and the time and the inclination (and possibly the credits), you'll wop the rest of the basin no matter what your skills.

Thank you.

It always amazes me how little people know about their own skills and territories. A couple examples, clearly people like Acrune clearly do not know about whirlpool. I've been stopped from 10 to 20 balances in a row from leaving the room, which is not uncommon. Clise, you already have a rift that leads to a supernal, so clearly, yes you can have rifts to them.

Ah we do? I was unsure on that part. So you have rifts that are harder to distort (not impossible), and elementalist with firewalls then.

Firewalls can be put out.

Not my own skill anymore, but I've faught against it before. Annoying, but not incredibly so. And... a very very very very small detail in the discussion on if Celest should be able to leave its nexus as a group...



The funny thing about this is that hailstorm isn't a demesne effect, isn't stopped by protection, doesn't hinder movement for anyone. Hailstorm is a damage attack... rubble hinders movement. So one has to wonder what you're talking about.



Of course I have

What about leap, tumble, fly and crash? - This works for most people, but leaves behind some of the smaller people who would not be able to join combat later. This could be used to get most of the more experience people individually (which is dangerous) off the pool, but would leave behind part of the group.

What about aetherships with a clever system of flashpoints? - Thats... a little bit unreasonable. Requires an aethership, a trans empath, and a large responce time to the raid considering once you get there the enemy could have left without encountering any resistance the whole time.

What about defensive rifts raised at places where it is extremely difficult if not impossible for enemies to distort? - Possible, but again would have a unreasonably long responce time.

What about cubixing onto the plane? - 2000 cr / $600 artifact. Need I say more? Though, again, it is possible.

Do ecology paths work on Celestia? - Oh yeah! Next time Glom starts regularly defending Celestia, we could totally do that.....

Can you burrow into the soil at the Pool? - No idea. Can't say I know of Celestians who can burrow though. There is an arty, but even that might be auction only.

Can you get a druid to raise briars or an elementalist to raise firewalls so that stonewalls won't fit? Can you get a wiccan to provide you with dryad trees in case you need to climb over walls? - Firewalls work... until they are instantly taken down by geyser. And druids help us all the time on Celestia. They're just invisable.

Come on now, be reasonable. Just because you hate Celest doesn't mean that you need to completely ignore how badly Celest got screwed with this change.



Agreed. Just because greaterpentagram would screw us more then stonewalls doesn't mean stonewalls are fine, Narsrim.

*urge Shorlen*

I would like to see if Maelstrom does the exact same damage as Pollute. I've had Pollute tested on me before (although not recently) and it did significantly less.

Meh, noone around to test now

I'd test, but my no-aqua-feat rogue self can't maelstrom.



Acrune, like so many people on forums when it comes to combat, blatantly has no idea what he is talking about. You are correct, and it has never changed.

My responses are in red.