Unknown2006-01-25 03:37:48
And, let's not forget spectres. Where do they fit? 
Tosha spirits...
Those terms are being used as synonyms.
I cannot define undead now.
Liches are undead. Yet they have a heartbeat, bleed, have to eat, sleep and breathe. They feel pain.
Then there are skeletons and they're also considered undead.
So, what does 'undead' actually mean?

Tosha spirits...
Those terms are being used as synonyms.
I cannot define undead now.
Liches are undead. Yet they have a heartbeat, bleed, have to eat, sleep and breathe. They feel pain.
Then there are skeletons and they're also considered undead.

So, what does 'undead' actually mean?
Unknown2006-01-25 03:44:23
Well, at least for those it is fairly easy to define. They are artificially reanimated dead flesh. Whether with a spirit inside or not.
Unknown2006-01-25 03:49:52
I guess...
Would mean all bodily functions are not required for an undead to operate, but liches keep them going so the body doesn't rot.
But then, why not cease those functions for a while when in stressing situation when it's so detrimental to have them, and re-establish them later.
Would mean all bodily functions are not required for an undead to operate, but liches keep them going so the body doesn't rot.
But then, why not cease those functions for a while when in stressing situation when it's so detrimental to have them, and re-establish them later.
Jasper2006-01-25 03:56:26
QUOTE(Kashim @ Jan 25 2006, 03:29 AM)
How about... Souls have a dead body somewhere. Ghosts don't have a related body anymore. Spirits never had a body to begin with. 

250086
Not true - Lisaera told Jasper one time that a particular Spirit of Serenwilde had a body, he simply lingered about because of his love of the forest.
Daganev2006-01-25 04:14:37
I see ghosts more as people who are 'stuck'
Spirits choose to reside where they do, and are there to teach others.
Souls wonder looking to fix thier body, and are there to teach themselves.
Ghosts can have a body or not, and wander as punishment to both teach themselves and as an example to others.
Spirits choose to reside where they do, and are there to teach others.
Souls wonder looking to fix thier body, and are there to teach themselves.
Ghosts can have a body or not, and wander as punishment to both teach themselves and as an example to others.
Unknown2006-01-25 04:16:28
I just think they are different words for the same concept. 

Daganev2006-01-25 04:19:48
Spirits are rarely undead unless they are ment to be there for the undead..
Like the Spirit of Lichdom or something.
Ofcourse in some fantasy games, Willo'wisps are considered undead
Like the Spirit of Lichdom or something.
Ofcourse in some fantasy games, Willo'wisps are considered undead
Unknown2006-01-25 04:33:03
Actually, a clever person ingame had the idea of referring to the 'bad undead' as Ur'dead, so that it didn't get confusing. I might just try and go with that. So Liches, skeletons, zombies, puppetmasters, Brennan & Rowena, etc... we can call Ur'dead.
Spirits and spectres are just spirits and spectres.
Who knows. Heh.
Spirits and spectres are just spirits and spectres.
Who knows. Heh.
ferlas2006-01-25 04:56:55
QUOTE(Kashim @ Jan 25 2006, 04:37 AM)
And, let's not forget spectres. Where do they fit? 
Tosha spirits...
Those terms are being used as synonyms.
I cannot define undead now.
Liches are undead. Yet they have a heartbeat, bleed, have to eat, sleep and breathe. They feel pain.
Then there are skeletons and they're also considered undead.Â
So, what does 'undead' actually mean?

Tosha spirits...
Those terms are being used as synonyms.
I cannot define undead now.
Liches are undead. Yet they have a heartbeat, bleed, have to eat, sleep and breathe. They feel pain.
Then there are skeletons and they're also considered undead.Â

So, what does 'undead' actually mean?
250089
Lich=sentient undead
Skeletons=in/unsentient what ever its called undead
Same way you have a sentient animal ie humans/taefae/merians and un/insentient animals snake, toad etc
Would that work to make it better to understand Like different classes of undead?
Unknown2006-01-25 04:59:53
QUOTE(ferlas @ Jan 25 2006, 04:56 AM)
Lich=sentient undead
Skeletons=in/unsentient what ever its called undead
Same way you have a sentient animal ie humans/taefae/merians and un/insentient animals snake, toad etc
Would that work to make it better to understand Like different classes of undead?
Skeletons=in/unsentient what ever its called undead
Same way you have a sentient animal ie humans/taefae/merians and un/insentient animals snake, toad etc
Would that work to make it better to understand Like different classes of undead?
250102
Actually, some skeleton undead are sentient. The ones beside Brennan teach skills.
ferlas2006-01-25 05:05:22
Ack forgot about him, that makes it ruddy complicated then if some of the same species are sentient and some arnt. Hmm cant think of anything for that.
Daganev2006-01-25 05:48:13
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jan 24 2006, 08:33 PM)
Actually, a clever person ingame had the idea of referring to the 'bad undead' as Ur'dead, so that it didn't get confusing. I might just try and go with that. So Liches, skeletons, zombies, puppetmasters, Brennan & Rowena, etc... we can call Ur'dead.
Spirits and spectres are just spirits and spectres.
Who knows. Heh.
Spirits and spectres are just spirits and spectres.
Who knows. Heh.
250099
cute... but makes no sense whatsoever!
Especially with puppetmasters and zombies nad brennan and Rowena.
Ur'dead are those who are in connection with the vernal god Urlach...
Narsrim2006-01-25 05:54:14
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jan 24 2006, 08:42 PM)
Hmm, the ghosts of Paavik's manor are all treated as undead creatures for influence and so on.
I think this is silly. Ghosts aren't undead, they are dead. If the influence thing is a big deal, keep them uninfluenceable without crow cloak/necromancy, but change the message to 'You have no influence with the dead.'
Otherwise, there are too many problems that follow from the classification. Spirits of ancestors (a big thing in Hartstone) that are summoned will have to be called Undead too. Souls after death would be called Undead, so every almost player will have been undead throughout their lifetime.
It is a minor change, but would make much more sense... and make taking an anti-undead stance a -lot- easier.
I think this is silly. Ghosts aren't undead, they are dead. If the influence thing is a big deal, keep them uninfluenceable without crow cloak/necromancy, but change the message to 'You have no influence with the dead.'
Otherwise, there are too many problems that follow from the classification. Spirits of ancestors (a big thing in Hartstone) that are summoned will have to be called Undead too. Souls after death would be called Undead, so every almost player will have been undead throughout their lifetime.
It is a minor change, but would make much more sense... and make taking an anti-undead stance a -lot- easier.
250010
Actually, ghosts are considered a form of undead. The problem is the negative stigma you seem to be attaching to the word. Anything that should be dead but isn't (and thus still exists in some form or another) is techically un-dead.
Necromancers have a chance of summoning a wraith. What is a wraith? It is a type of ghost.
Narsrim2006-01-25 05:54:54
QUOTE(daganev @ Jan 24 2006, 09:14 PM)
Are they ghosts or ghasts?
They arn't spirits persay, they are more like "haunting ghosts" that want to be dead rather then spirits that don't want to be dead.
They arn't spirits persay, they are more like "haunting ghosts" that want to be dead rather then spirits that don't want to be dead.
250025
A ghost and a ghast are nothing alike. A ghast is a corporeal being. A ghost is incorporeal.
Estarra2006-01-25 09:15:18
QUOTE(Avaer @ Jan 24 2006, 07:09 PM)
The problem is, almost any argument you make for saying why the Paavik ghosts fall into the category of undead will mean you end up saying other types of critters Serenwilde should be friendly with are undead too.
I just don't like the thought of ghosts being undead, because it raises too many philosophical problems about the nature of death in Lusternia.
I just don't like the thought of ghosts being undead, because it raises too many philosophical problems about the nature of death in Lusternia.
I'm not going to enter the debate regarding ghosts, undead and spirits. However I do want to know one thing: What's wrong with philosophical debates regarding the nature of death in Lusternia? Even the gods may have different opinions on the subject! Why does there have to be one right answer? Or for that matter, if you have strong feelings on the matter IC, why would you then even bother listening to any other opinion?
Unknown2006-01-25 09:30:02
QUOTE(Estarra @ Jan 25 2006, 02:15 AM)
I'm not going to enter the debate regarding ghosts, undead and spirits. However I do want to know one thing: What's wrong with philosophical debates regarding the nature of death in Lusternia? Even the gods may have different opinions on the subject! Why does there have to be one right answer? Or for that matter, if you have strong feelings on the matter IC, why would you then even bother listening to any other opinion?
250165
Well, it doesn't help that he can argue whatever he wants, but coding doesn't listen.
He can commune with ghosts as a Hartstone druid, so he can argue that ghosts are not undead all he wants - but clearly, when he tries to influence the Paavik Ghosts, the hardcoded laws of the multiverse are going to slap him down. That's how I'd win the argument.
Avaerin: Ghosts are dead, not undead!
Me: *point Paavik*
Avaerin: *shattered ego*
Me: *flex*
Lisaera2006-01-25 14:50:47
Hartstone spirits AREN'T coded as undead, so if he wanted he could just say the universe decides what's undead and what's not.
Or he could just listen to what his Goddess says in-game. That would be terrible though.
Or he could just listen to what his Goddess says in-game. That would be terrible though.
Unknown2006-01-25 15:56:03
Keep in mind that Urlach was a Vernal God who I think either created or discovered Undead.
Undead status may not equate Evil, at least as philosophy goes.
Undead status may not equate Evil, at least as philosophy goes.
Jasper2006-01-25 18:07:40
QUOTE(Phred @ Jan 25 2006, 03:56 PM)
Keep in mind that Urlach was a Vernal God who I think either created or discovered Undead.
Undead status may not equate Evil, at least as philosophy goes.
Undead status may not equate Evil, at least as philosophy goes.
250206
Urlach's undeath is not evil - but the current state of undeath in Lusternia can be considered as. I remember Lisaera stating that the current state of undeath is brought back by the taint - and for Seren terms that means it is bad.
Narsrim2006-01-25 18:54:14
Perhaps I'm weird, but I find it more interesting that undeath as a whole is more than a simple yes-or-no.
We have fleshy undead, spectral undead, necromantic undead, etc.
We have fleshy undead, spectral undead, necromantic undead, etc.