Staleness and other mumbo jumbo.

(this guys a forum noob)
So I've notice lately ( not just around the holiday times ) that there has been. Slight decline to the number of people in lusternia and I have a few questions.

1 - Why have there been less people around for the past year(ish).

2 - what can we do IGly to improve the novice turnover rate?

3 - what can we bring to the Admin regarding the issue? Possible events, updates, quests, alliances, etc...

I really think this is a bigger deal than most realize. When I first started, there were over 130 in realm at any given time, for the past few months, I've noticed about 70-80.

You'd probably need to go guild by guild to get any real idea tbh.

Some never got off the ground, some lost members after x change, there was an exodus for y reason, a few kinda gave up, and others just simply disappeared.

Can't say it will be the same everywhere, but this is probably an overview of common...ish reasons for older players disappearing. Then when they go the support for newer players weakens which makes it harder to keep them, on top of this if the reasons for older players leaving are not addressed (at least those that can be) then they can lead to new players leaving eventually for those same reasons.

Once you get past all that, you have the org itself to deal with. Its general health relative to the others has an impact on its guilds. A guild with issues can survive slightly better with winning org momentum than its opposition but that does not mean that the issues are not there.

The low numbers in some guilds have also lead to some players deciding that they will go and help out, unfortunately how long they stay can depend on how much they actually like the skills. I love the Hartstone, I think it has great potential, but the skills bore me to tears.

I'd be interested in a report on each guild like...

• what changes were made to our skills
  
• what happened to us ic
  
• what was our activity like x months ago
  
• what is our activity like now
  
• were there any internal issues that occurred,
  
• were there any issues within the org
  
• known reasons for members leaving(i.e. went to help out a different guild)
  

it's probably the best way to break it down without asking all of the players.

This is what I think happened to Hartstone, in that order:

Our skills are pretty lame. They don't just bore me, they actively frustrate me, and I don't see much hope for that ever changing. "If you don't like it, don't play it!" you say? No one likes playing a gimpy class so should no one play it, then right? Ah wait, that is exactly what happened. The change to Hartstone skills was mostly the big demesne nerf that hit druids harder then mages, because druids are far more tied to demesne then mages (see psionics). In addition, many of the protections against druid demesnes that were added in the 'glory days', when demesnes were enormous and more powerful, were not removed to account for smaller demesne and smaller hitting effects. Notably brumetower, a uniquely Hartstone problem. Another functional downfall for the Hartstone skills was the development of stronger clients, such as mudlet, and the increasing number of good programmers on the scene. The primary strategy of the Druids relies soley on the victim having bad curing and the enemy group having bad coordination. As curing improved, the skills (and by connection the census) plummeted. This is something that really bothers me, hardcore. I could talk all day about how any number of things either outclassess druid or totally nullifies it. It's sad being in your own demesne, omnitransed and demigod, not able to even touch a complete novice any way but with direct damage killing, because they have a (moderately) robust curing system. Or a second novice with a cleanse enchant.

IC, there was a period of time where a lot of our tradition and ritual was either intentionally thrown out or forgotten, closely followed by a few mass exodus..es of guild leadership. This left the guild fairly desolate and empty, both of people and of substance. For a time, incoming novices met a warm welcome from one or two guild members if they were lucky, and got to see those one or two people again, if even luckier.

Over the months (years, has it been that long, I forget) I've played in the Hartstone, membership has fluctuated somewhat. There hasn't been any real change to the above two items, despite my own personal promises to fix or help fix both, it takes me ages to do anything, more if I'm alone in doing it. Every so often we get an influx of players, either due to incoming novices or current members managing to induct others (I've gotten a few to join like that, I was hopeful we would keep Asmodea and she'd be our champ, back when we didn't have one. She played druid for less then a month and went back to SS, for the skills) .

Now, our activity is still limping along as it always does. When I'm on, it's usually myself and perhaps one to three other people. I hear that when other people are on, from different timezones (like Saran or Qistrel), they are usually in the same spot. That's not as bad as it's been before.

We've had some (really really) bad politics in the past. Not so much after the era when Gregori and Kyra and co were around, though there was some bad stuff with Kiarlea while I was GA that drove some people off, I think.

Seren-slump.

EDIT: I hope I've managed to convey that I'm sad about a lot of this, instead of just bitter. Have some ideas on how to help, but no steam to spare to go through with them at the moment. Or in the near future, honestly.

I'm aussie and I have weird sleep patterns along with being given the responsibility of running a club at uni (head of the nerds though ^_^)

What I find is that I run into either no one online, or some rank ones that I can't really help much as an undersec (do need to double check if I can do initiations though). There was some fighting or feinting in etherwilde today which ended up being me standing in a coven because well there was already a druid there. It's just not interesting.

I actually think the admin need to start coming up with strategies for the lower ranked guilds because the hartstone have been working down to this point for four years now.

as an aside: I was thinking about other ways for us to show our bond to each other rather than sharing skills as part of an ongoing "how do we refresh ourselves?" tangent, favourite thought was a few abilities that work together with the other guilds cause you know you want to see the Hartstone/Moondancer fusion dance.

Spiritsingers have always had a pretty low novice intake, but our retention rate was amongst the best in the game, as far as I'm aware. Problem these last few months is we've had very few new novices, so even with a decent retention rate, we haven't actually been able to keep anyone. A lot of the older members have been getting more RL responsibilities, so overall our guild has become much less active.

Those are exactly the issues I'm describing. Shofangi were the same way when I was there as were the Cacophony. It's not just a single guild. Is there something that needs to be done IG to increase the novice turnover rate? Also, what happened to cause the mass exodus?

My take on novice turnover issues:

1. A lack of people willing to teach. - Not just teach, mind, but genuinely pry at new players to see what they are getting and what they aren't. The number of dedicated players who focus most of their energy on novices has dropped a lot over time and has not been regularly replaced.

2. More complex than ever - Lusternia has far more stuff to figure out and be daunted by than ever before. I remember it being hard enough before when it was just three guilds per org and four orgs, now it's just... I have no idea what exactly it might be like to be starting fresh. This issue is compounded by the first one.

3. More competitive than ever - Novices who want to help with things that sound big and important, like domoths, often find they cannot. An increased need in communication between orgs due to alliances means that there are more opportunities for communication gaps in your own org, and I hear complaints about people never getting an answer when they ask, "How can I help?". It doesn't help that for many of these things, timing is -critical-, so taking the time to explain things is rarely an option. If you wait to explain later, they might not be there, or you might forget, or it might just be difficult to explain outside of the context of actually being there and doing it. As such, this point is compounded by the first two.

Even if they do come along, that doesn't mean they'll be given any clue as to what they should be doing outside of a few terse commands while everyone else scrambles to keep up with what they need to be doing.

4. What is "free"? - I have a lot of novices asking me about beastmastery, aetherspace, and all the other things in between, but no matter where they look they run into the issue of needing more lessons/credits. All of their guilds and all the help files intended to guide them will make a general emphasis on learning guild skills, at which point they feel torn and like they can't realistically get even some of what they want without spending money. Once they get an idea of the effort required to get into combat after that, I've seen a number never show up again.

There's more, obviously, such are "where are the graphics?", but that just comes with the general MUD territory. I feel like these can be highlighted as common sources of confusion and complaint that I actually have heard, and have increased with time.

A lack of people willing to teach. - Not just teach, mind, but genuinely pry at new players to see what they are getting and what they aren't. The number of dedicated players who focus most of their energy on novices has dropped a lot over time and has not been regularly replaced.

I wonder about the promotions, some of them have been a little weird. Instead of giving people free credits just for being logged in for X minutes or for each day, there should be more incentives to help novices--like they do with guides. But that's a note I'll write in a separate thread.

Enyalida:

While I do get some of the lesson/credit woes, you can get loads of credits by doing things like contests, not all of which are totally barred from younglings.

Oh yes, I get this. It's also one of the few things novices complain about that can't really readily change, but it is definitely compounded by the other points in my post. After all that, the clear level of energy they need to invest in spite of everything else seems to be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Relating back to the teaching people bit, I'll given an example. Just recently I encountered a person who's definitely had regular access to totems for several weeks, but who didn't know they had access to scent. They did know that people with pig noses could scent, but not totems users! These are the sorts of things that collegiums and such just can't handle (if only to avoid information overload) and is up to players to make sure other people know and are aware of.

I can't remember a time when someone wasn't saying that our activity level was low or our retention rates weren't as good as we hoped. What I really wonder is, have things actually changed, and it's just that, what seemed not enough once now would seem like luxury? Or has it really been the same? And what measure do we really want to use? Things like CULTURE and TOPGUILDS don't just tell us nothing, they're dangerous in that they seem to be telling us something, so are misleading. "My guild seems quiet" anecdotes are even worse since they're so anecdotal, and since we all seem to be playing an entirely different game, based on the way we talk about how it feels (though most of us refuse to realize that). So what's the real metric that matters? Probably credit sales, since that's what's really gonna make the game keep going (or not), but I doubt Estarra's about to publish her monthly P&L for us to view. :)

I agree with every point Vendetta has brought up and I'll just add my own thoughts to them.

1. Before collegiums, many guilds required their undersecretaries to actually sit down with them and teach them the basics. Even after collegiums, some strived to do this. I think most people realised how much of a time investment this really was and nowadays hardly anyone still does it. The problem is that while it is great if you the novice is going to stay and make a huge contribution to the game, but what about all the ones who don't come back? It takes at least 30 minutes to an hour to get through a single novice properly. For most people, they feel that if they wanted to put that much time into playing this game, they could be doing something more worthwhile. On a personal level, I feel that the guides are getting paid to handle novices, so they can use their time to do it. Having collegiums just gave us an excuse to stop bothering, instead directing them to the relevant CLHELPs.

2&3. These two points usually go hand in hand. There are many times when even the more experienced people are scrambling to make things happen. Just take aetherflares for example. When they first began, very few people in Serenwilde had any clue what they were even supposed to do, because their only experience with aetherships came in the form of afk aetherhunting. I was one of the few who had an idea, but it was all still new to me. When they happened (and they always seemed to happen late at night when most Americans were asleep), it felt like a lost cause for me, because it seemed like I had to explain to every single person what they should be doing. I just didn't have the time for it, when I had to try to organise everyone to get on a ship, find a ship with the right flashpoints, check on what other orgs are going for and everything else that comes with trying to lead an entire aetherflare capture attempt. This can apply to everything else.

Lots of people have told me I'm not helpful enough when novices or less experienced people ask what is going on or how they can help. The problem is I can't really afford to teach every single person who has no clue what is going on and what they should be doing, because these things are complex and they are competitive. Even if I did waste valuable time telling you, you likely wouldn't be able to help, because many of these things require you to have both mechanical experience (ie don't bother coming when you are level 50. You're just going to die instantly) and the experience from playing the game (ie don't bother coming if you don't know how your skills worked because you spend most of your time afk snuggling or afk aetherhunting). I also hardly ever get around to explaining it to them after, mostly because I usually just forget. It's hard enough to keep up with the fight or whatever is going on without having to remember what every single person said.

Regarding point 1. I completely agree. Example: while I was waiting to buy credits for a race change, I created a few novice chars to see how other guilds operate. I created a char in every city and to be honest, I didn't receive help in person from anyone, I was just directed to help scrolls. So it seems the problem with the novice turnover rate is due to the lack of care towards the novice base by the player base.

But what about the staleness that causes older players to leave and can anything be done about this novice issue?

Lendren:

I can't remember a time when someone wasn't saying that our activity level was low or our retention rates weren't as good as we hoped. What I really wonder is, have things actually changed, and it's just that, what seemed not enough once now would seem like luxury? Or has it really been the same? And what measure do we really want to use? Things like CULTURE and TOPGUILDS don't just tell us nothing, they're dangerous in that they seem to be telling us something, so are misleading. "My guild seems quiet" anecdotes are even worse since they're so anecdotal, and since we all seem to be playing an entirely different game, based on the way we talk about how it feels (though most of us refuse to realize that). So what's the real metric that matters? Probably credit sales, since that's what's really gonna make the game keep going (or not), but I doubt Estarra's about to publish her monthly P&L for us to view. :)

Well, I mean. I'm looking at the guild credits, the logs for when newbies join, and when people may leave, GUILD LASTLOGIN on people I remember being more active recently, the shoplogs for the guild shop (that sells near free powerstones for totemcarving), the very short GMEMBERS list, how many on that list are novices or GR1 (75% or so) and so on. Overall population has gone up, I think. Population per guild however... People also tend to concentrate in certain guilds also!

EDIT: what causes a lot of frustration and 'staleness' among older players (or me and people I talk to, at least) is that we've gotten to the peak of our power and are still fairly impotent to change.... anything about the game world. For all our demigodly power, things chug along exactly the same until admins decide to change things via events that feel railroaded. Good example: During the first (?) ice devil event, a bunch of devils came to the Seren nexus to steal the totem there. We amassed a huge group and beat the living crud out of them. No way no how were there any surviving our onslaught. The totem was stolen anyways. Why did we even bother? We could have stood around picking our noses and it would end up the same. That sort of thing is what makes me throw up my hands, tbh. (I didn't like a whoooole lot about that event. I thought it was particularly hilarious that Miakoda started complaining about there being 'cold and death in the forest'. Things die in the forest all the time and.... it's a damn cold forest all the time! Nothing new or shocking there, hehe.)

Enyalida:
EDIT: what causes a lot of frustration and 'staleness' among older players (or me and people I talk to, at least) is that we've gotten to the peak of our power and are still fairly impotent to change.... anything about the game world.

A lot of that is innate to the limitations of what a MUD or MMORPG is. No one's gonna pour weeks of their effort into creating something and then have it only last a little while, so everything has to have a reset button built into it. Lusternia leaves more room for actual change than most, but in a way, having a few token things like a nexus power level, or the few days of screwing with people you can do by killing their iconic creatures, is so little that it does more to throw the shortfall into sharp focus than it does to mitigate it. Lusternia also often goes too far in preserving every ounce of investment made by its (admittedly underappreciated and probably overworked) creative team, so that even the mistakes have to be kept because We Can't Throw Anything Away, Dammit(tm). But those are just minor deviations from the baseline of "nothing you can do in a game like this can ever have a real impact" that is innate to the technology. I think the solution for that is, turn off your computer, go to your Friendly Local Gaming Store, buy some dice and books, get some friends around, and play a roleplaying game. And then come back to Lusternia only because your real roleplaying game got cancelled this week, and you're jonesing so bad that when you can't get single-malt whiskey, a Sterno can is better than being dry.

Which is all the wrong way to look at it. Compare MUDs to RPGs based on the ability to change the world with your actions, and MUDs lose, hard. But that's because you chose the challenge where MUDs are weakest and RPGs are strongest. Choose a different challenge, like the thrill of having actual players on the other side (if you go for that, and don't mind that it means the bad guys have to win at least half the time), or the possibility of modeling complex systems like an economy that depend on more moving parts than an RPG group can gather up, or the possibility that there is always something to do and lots of choices (admittedly one of the main areas where Lusternia used to excel and has sunk about as low as it can get, but when talking about MUDs in general), or the massive parallelism of creativity from different minds, and then MUDs will win over RPGs. So it's just a matter of which things you want that day.

Lendren:


A lot of that is innate to the limitations of what a MUD or MMORPG is. No one's gonna pour weeks of their effort into creating something and then have it only last a little while, so everything has to have a reset button built into it. Lusternia leaves more room for actual change than most, but in a way, having a few token things like a nexus power level, or the few days of screwing with people you can do by killing their iconic creatures, is so little that it does more to throw the shortfall into sharp focus than it does to mitigate it. Lusternia also often goes too far in preserving every ounce of investment made by its (admittedly underappreciated and probably overworked) creative team, so that even the mistakes have to be kept because We Can't Throw Anything Away, Dammit(tm). But those are just minor deviations from the baseline of "nothing you can do in a game like this can ever have a real impact" that is innate to the technology. I think the solution for that is, turn off your computer, go to your Friendly Local Gaming Store, buy some dice and books, get some friends around, and play a roleplaying game. And then come back to Lusternia only because your real roleplaying game got cancelled this week, and you're jonesing so bad that when you can't get single-malt whiskey, a Sterno can is better than being dry.

Which is all the wrong way to look at it. Compare MUDs to RPGs based on the ability to change the world with your actions, and MUDs lose, hard. But that's because you chose the challenge where MUDs are weakest and RPGs are strongest. Choose a different challenge, like the thrill of having actual players on the other side (if you go for that, and don't mind that it means the bad guys have to win at least half the time), or the possibility of modeling complex systems like an economy that depend on more moving parts than an RPG group can gather up, or the possibility that there is always something to do and lots of choices (admittedly one of the main areas where Lusternia used to excel and has sunk about as low as it can get, but when talking about MUDs in general), or the massive parallelism of creativity from different minds, and then MUDs will win over RPGs. So it's just a matter of which things you want that day.

I think I missed the punch line.. How do we increase novice turnover rate?

Alik:

I think I missed the punch line.. How do we increase novice turnover rate?

By actively engaging them. The social aspects of the game are one thing we all share, and create for each other. I think sometimes we're not quite conscious just how steep the learning curve is here. Many of the times we're talking to each other IG, it's with terms and concepts that they've never heard, so approaching people for conversation can be daunting. Their characters are very often weak, both in lessons/levels and in terms of RP. So it feels like they can't participate until they do a lot of work (Which is never fun). The onus is on us, imho, to make the first step to them.

Answering questions helps, and is something many already do. Helping a novice on a planar quest? Don't just do the standard express pit-stop on each plane. Show them the relevant denizens on your org's plane and, especially if they're the talkative sort, talk to them about why you serve/protect/use such creatures. Help them build their character, by developing thoughts about what they think about such philosophies. And so on, and so forth. Something here was fun, or maybe almost magical, for you, when you began. So share that with a random novice rather than your years-long friends (or take them with you!) once in a while, just because.

But you also have to remember that many will simply not come back, no matter what you do. MUDs, and especially Lusternia, I think, are not for everyone. All you can do is help make the visit they do have with you a fun one. Give them a hint of the incredible depth that makes this much, much more than an endless grind of bashing or raids. The depth easily accessible without mountains of credits or gold.

Alik:
I think I missed the punch line.. How do we increase novice turnover rate?

I wasn't really trying to answer that. I've posted a lot of thoughts about this on the forum over the last year or three, but my ideas are not much liked.

Getting players to stay is a two step process that involves two issues:
1) What kind of game is Lusternia? What kind of players like that kind of game?
2) What kinds of things motivate those kinds of players? What kinds of things discourage them? How do you make sure the former occur in enough quantity early enough to overcome the latter?

You can't start answering question #2 effectively without first answering question #1, because everything in question #2 depends on the psychology of the people you picked out in question #1.

The thing is, the answer to question #1 has changed over the years, and the player base has shifted accordingly: many of the people who used to feel they fit into Lusternia left (or became far, far less active), because they no longer feel that way, because it changed. That's not necessarily a bad thing. The player base it appeals to now may be a perfectly good market to serve. But as long as we try to pretend it hasn't changed, all our attempts to answer question #2 are cut off at the knees before we ever start. Trouble is, no one wants to talk about the idea that it's changed; everyone finds it more comfortable to imagine that it can be, ought to be, and still wants to be, all things to all people. So this conversation never really gets down to the real issues that would help.

So, Lendren, how would you answer that/those questions?